Bah-dump-bump-bump! :-)

Plus, we've now proven Godwin's law yet again.

Plus plus, it was Joseph Goebbels, not Goering. My fault. Hermann Goering was the Luftwaffe and tanks guy.

Sadly, I've worked with some contractors that think the term "Architects" and "Nazis" are kind of "related"....

Why not but I've no time before a month or 2.

You should understand the request for better proofs.
As an example, my Jean-Pierre Monseré bike :
- Parts labelled with his name
- First identified by Emile Arbes
- Bearing a sticker with the name of someone who knew Monseré
- In the book "forever 22", something like 20 pictures where the bike can be recognized
- Confirmed by Mark Van Hamme
- Confirmed in the Monseré museum
These are proofs and references that can be contacted.

Counter example, the last bike I bought (for the campa parts)
- vague mention of a red guard by the vendor. Forgotten name
- after some research, I presented him a list of potential racer, based on their presumed size
Immediatelly, he pointed the name that I had hidden in this list
- Close area (10 km) of the city of the racer.
- Matching exceptional size.
Is this enough to conclude ?
I'm afraid not and I'll try again to get in touch with the potential previous owner

If this was enough as evidences, I could also claim a early bike of Alex Close, a bike of Axel, within others.

(et tu peux me contacter en Français)

Marine biologist.

Not my latex salesman.

Tommy Godwin?

Where's Art Vandelay when you need him?

Yes, from your description of the tab changes you mentioned though, it could well be at least one more. The versions I mentioned are well before the CPSC had an influence.

My search started to locate SL pedals that would be acceptable for a 1969 model bike. I found images of pros using black pedals and since they were on Full Campagnolo… I concluded they were not by Atom.
Before that gets really tricky as the images are just not of high enough resolution.

Bonjour,

financer le reste des travaux dans la maison par une entreprise car je m'en sors pas comme on dit.
L'année dernière on a changé la toitures: 10000€
aujourd'hui on doit refaire toute l'isolation et le placo du deuxième étage (à cause des fuites de la dalle du toit béton)...
Lorsque l'on a acheté la maison il y a 3 ans on a pas vu ces vices cachés... malheureusement.
Aujourd'hui on vit dans une maison dont le deuxième étage n'est pas habitable... c'est un joyeux "bordel"
Si je ne devais garder que quelques photos, je garderai les vélos MOLTENI et mes vélos de l'équipe GAN.

Bon week-end

Séb

Per Google Translate:

Hello, fund the remaining work in the house by a company because I'm not doing as they say. Last year we changed the roof: € 10,000 today must redo all the insulation and plasterboard on the second floor (due to leakage of the roof slab concrete) ... When we bought the house there 3 years we have not seen these hidden defects ... unfortunately. Today we live in a house whose second floor is not habitable ... this is a joyful "brothel" If I had to keep a few photos, I keep my bikes and bikes MOLTENI the GAN team . Good weekend Seb

I look at this bike and shake my head. Yes, as is the case with all the things that Stefan sells, the photos are exceptional but everything else about the bike is oh so wrong. So this is supposed to be Ferretti replica bike however the frame postdates the team. No Ferretti bike that I have ever seen or heard of has ever had a twin plate fork crown. The twin plate fork crown was first used in very late 1972, when the Ferretti team was already winding down (it was morphing into Sammontana at the time). Then you speak of the pedals. Well, in one photo (the 8th one), you can see some first generation superleggeri pedals which would be correct for a replica, but the strap loop pedals are indeed incorrect. Then look at the chainring, a 53 tooth ring would have been highly unlikely in the early 70's. If it was not a 52, it would more likely have been a 51 than a 53. When you then look at the 11th photo you can see the chainring pin to prevent the chain falling between the arm and the chainring, hence post-1978. Stefan knows this full well but does not reveal this. The cranks themselves are marked 1973 for a bike that is meant to replicate a bike that was used by a team that ceased to exist in 1972... The chain as already noted is incoherent with the rest of the components. The saddle is likewise far too new for the bike. The handle 3TTT bars are the wrong brand as all the team bikes used Cinelli. Masi branded handlebars in Merckx bend were also not available in teh Ferretti era. Now getting on to the "restoration" (In my view, at best one could speak of a "creation of a wild imagination"), the decals do not appear to replicate the sizing of the original or their appearance and the seat bands on the actual team bikes vaunted the world championship wins of Masi instead of being "simple" WC stripes. The chainstay "brev. Masi" decals should normally have been blue on the team bikes, not red. So you have a frame that post-dates the bike that it is supposed to be replicating, fitted with poor replica decals, with components that are not coherent with a specific period and in the case of the headset is brinnelled (as Stefan so quaintly writes: "some bearing marks on lower bearing"). To me this is what in Italian one would defines as "tutto fumo, niente arrosto". I would honestly prefer to have a beaten up old Masi that needs a complete repaint than something as messed up as this creation.

Now for a slightly more accurate translation (I have corrected a few of Seb's grammatical errors):

Hello,

funding the remaining work in the house by a (building) contractor because I'm not able, as they say, to handle it myself.
Last year we changed the roofing: € 10,000
today must redo all the insulation and plasterboard on the second floor (due to leakage of the slab of the concrete roof) ...
When we bought the house 3 years ago we'd not seen these hidden defects ... unfortunately.
Today we live in a house whose second floor is not habitable ... this is a joyful mess. (bordel is historically the word for brothel but has morphed to more commonly mean a mess in slang).
If I were to keep but a few photos, I would keep my MOLTENI bikes and my bikes from the GAN team .

Sounds like we got up on the wrong side of the bed today? All smoke and no fire - I like that!

The over-shift pin was available way earlier than 1978, fwiw. More like 1972-1973. Ever see a Super Record 50-tooth or larger road ring without one? Nope....

Look at it this way, if you will: with the twin-plate crown, it will never be mistaken for a genuine Team bike by those 'in the know?' Also, I agree with your last sentence, I generally avoid 'restored' bikes like the plague, but that's not the point here.

Tommy Makem, perhaps?

CdM is correct as to much if not all the shortcomings he noted, in addition the toe straps are of the wrong brand and would undoubtedly have had the fold over end and rivet closure.

But My point was the overall presentation, the images are of number, detail and quality to expose what one is going to bid on very well. The comment of the headset wear is something that of course cannot be seen but is commented on. The prospective bidder can make their own judgement with pretty good confidence that there will not be surprises upon receipt.

My guess is that the frame set is later than 1972, more likely 1973 or maybe even 1974.

If I was going to do a replica I wold have started with a Masi that had a different crown.

Stefan's trustworthiness on packing care and expediency of shipping is first rate.

The huge problem with your last paragraph is that Stefan too often gets a free ride because of the exceptional quality of his photos. You as well as others have spoken highly about Stefan and his accuracy and trustworthiness. So your average collector could very readily take your assertion regarding his trustworthiness and extend it to mean that what he states and sells is correct. This is simply not the case, far from it. This bike is simply put a perfect example of how not to "restore" a bike. It is a mess, even if a beautiful mess.

As for the tooth on the chainring, I went to check my bikes in the garage and I stand corrected. I found a fully original 1974 bike with the pin and one from 1973 (with crank date code 1973) without, so the first appearance must have been late 1973 or early 1974 (or one or more of the chainrings have been changed over the years). However, looking at the chainrings this does highlight the fact that Stefan's bike has a Record chainring and a Super Record small chainring, so another inconsistency.

If you want further niggling, the allen bolt for the front derailleur is incorrect, the brake center bolts have been painted yellow as generally seen on Masi built bikes, but contrary to the Masi-built ones, they have not been cut down (the whole reason why they were painted in the first place)

All told, the bike has issues with the following components:

bars and stem, incorrect vintage and brand for vintage of paint scheme
Brake levers, clearly evident replica hoods
headset: brinnelled
saddle incorrect vintage for both frame and paint scheme
front derailleur incorrect mounting hardware and perhaps the incorrect vintage (the photos don't show whether it has the circlip)
chainset: mismatched chainrings and incorrect vintage for what the paint scheme would indicate
Pedals: Incorrect vintage both from frame and for paint scheme
Wheels: Incorrect brand and wrong vintage rims
Brake calipers: center bolts not in keeping with Masi build
Toe clips: the bolts are longer than original Campagnolo ones and are therefore not correct (the clips and straps themselves are admittedly replaced and therefore not worthy of comment)
Top tube cable clips: Masi always cut them down once mounted (not done here)
Chain: As already mentioned
Shift levers: the team bikes still had clamp-ons and the particular drillium seen on Stefan's bike appear to be of a more modern design that was commonly seen on early 70's Masi bikes. The earliest braze-on's still kept the cable guides that are missing here.

so what does this leave that is not incriminated? Potentially the seat post? Potentially the hubs? Potentially the BB? In my books that is pretty meagre balance.

Stefan is the best in the business about photographing and presenting his goods with clarity. So an informed buyer can indeed purchase from him with almost absolute safety. A new collector or one who is not well versed is however very likely to get something that is quite different from what they think they are buying. Indeed I have spoken to many people who purchased things from him on emotion to later find out upon studying and speaking to more informed collectors that what they bought was not what they thought they were buying. At times I think that this is simply the price of admission that new collectors need to pay to joint the fraternity, at other times I find it somewhat unscrupulous.

I too think that the frame used to build this bike is likely a 1973, 74 or perhaps even 1975. Had the bike been restored as a 1973-74 GC, most of my comments on the bike would disappear.

I just found this: a REAL Ferretti team

Bici Classiche : Squadra Corse Ferretti 1971 by Masi

It indeed takes quite a bit of effort to collect the knowledge to judge old bikes accurately. Information and misinformation is easier to find than ever now with the internet. Circling around to the original theme early on in this thread, providing reasonably verifiable documentation on these old race bikes is quite a challenge.

Well, the results of this auction went more or less where I had expected. Had Stefan restored it with the same care as a GC, I believe that the price would have been well over $2000, perhaps even over $3000. This also goes to show that the potential market is much less deep than it was a few years ago even if the top bikes continue to go up.

My initial post vaporized.

Yes, the market has spoken. The recession is not over for all. Even those with money I conclude are being careful. The probable Audience for this bike, say someone in their late 50's to 60's probably wants as much authenticity as possible. If this was a repainted Gran Criterium from 1973 or 1974 it would most likely have Alberto's signature and those bikes in original finish seem to get between $1,500 and $2,000 US recently.

I think a better referencing of the look of the Ferretti bikes could have been done to make it appear more correct.

Hey guys...what happened to Eddys' bike? All of those "team bikes" from Molteni are off of ebay...or did I just miss the end of the auction?

I've seen something a very strange Molteni bike.
One of the bikes of Joseph Bruyere. Another one probably.

If you look at the main triangle, It's a Kessels.
The last models of Kessels with slots on the BB rather than holes. Old paint + second type of Kessels sticker.

However, If you look at the rear triangle... it looks like the De Rosa.

I let you speculate.
A period repair ?
A colaboration between Kessels & De Rosa ?

Time for me to play with a team bike.

I already had restored an early Kessels Molteni but despite being nice it was not a team bike.

Yesterday, I came back from a visit to a former member of the 1977 team FIAT with his team frame.
Frame = De Rosa
Fork = Kessels
Mounted as is by Charles...

Anybody knows who is the person calling himself "Oldcampy" ?

I realized that he dared to publish my pictures on his flickr acount and claimed a copyright ...

Incredible what some people would do ...

My 1972 Kessels "Eddy Merckx" has 6-speed spacing. It was around back then, but uncommon on bikes made for the general public.