I'm curious, what's better about the geometry of the Clem? I didn't see the geometry specs for the Clem and even vintage mtbs are all over the map when it comes to geometry since they became "racier" over time.

I dunno. If you want a Riv, it seems to me that you want a Riv, lugs and all. This doesn't ring those bells for me. But maybe I'm wrong; I hope they sell like hotcakes.

I agree it is poor marketing I don't know why they are trying to sell it that way. But since they did people will make that comparison.

As you know, the Roadeo is their light-weight club racer, "our answer to speedy carbon road bikes". I think it's the only bike that has published weight specs. I've ridden and picked up a few of their bikes, they are hardly boat anchors - nice bikes. But we felt they were 3-5 pounds heavier than what we saw as comparable offerings in 'modern' bikes, and they sure are heavier than my vintage cr-mo bikes. If we are talking 36h 26" wheels with 1.75 tires, racks and panniers, I guess it makes little difference how much the frame weights. But it makes a difference to us, and I bet a lot of other riders.

Where I'm coming from with my opinion on this, is that I really wanted a Riv and I really like their bikes. I know a few people who have them, and they love them. I was seriously considering one a couple years ago. I wanted a Hilsen, but it was way out of my budget. Grant steered me towards the Sam, or maybe the Soma San Marcos. I thought about this for a long time, and I eventually decided these were still more money than I could spend. Around the same time, VO came out with the Pass Hunter, which sold for $540. I ended up with one of those, and I love it.

Now, for me, these new bikes cost more than I would have wanted to spend, and yet don't ring those "Riv" styling bells for me. So I know I'm not the market. I don't think casual riders are the market, either, because the cost is still pretty high. I still don't really understand who the market is. I suspect Neal may be right, and that the majority of these will be sold to people who already have a Riv, buying a 2nd bike or maybe buying one for a significant other.

Heh RJM,

Thanks for the info!

I'm learning a bunch in this thread.

Still don't want a Clem under any circumstances.

I like the Atlantis with drop bars and fenders.

Yeah, riv isn't afraid to tell people that if they want a cheaper option to go to Surley or Linus or Soma. Around my area, which is western Kentucky, I can find old Trek mountain bikes for 50 buck, but I would imagine San Fran availability is different. It seems like there could be slim pickins on it. I'm kind of the dude who doesn't want to spend a weekend resurrecting an 80's garage find, rather I would be happier building a bike that fits me using modern components. One of the aspects I appreciate with the Riv frames I've bought is that I don't have to deal with weird bottom bracket standards and can find a plethora of components to fit without resorting to resetting the spacing or other weirdness. I'm just not that much of a tinkerer, even though I prefer to build my bikes.

A lot of Rivs seem to be built up using lower shelf components that actually work well and are less expensive, but weigh more; that seems to be a Riv philosophy. I mean, Grant is pushing the Altus derailer for the clems. The frames don't seem to be all that heavier than other steel frame offerings, although Riv certainly doesn't put much stock into weight savings. It certainly isn't a motivating factor when one is purchasing a Riv.

I built my Roadeo using Ultegra 6800 and a modern wheelset, but with a lugged quill stem because it looks cool albeit heavier. Most of the weight of a bike comes from component choices though and I could have easily made the Roadeo heavier and probably could still make it lighter if I cared. I just wanted a quick, modern-ish, comfortable, steel bike I could hang with the group or do some long solo rides with. The Roadeo fits that bill pretty well for me.

Rivendell has a niche of the market, so it stands to reason that a majority of people don't see the appeal. That's how it is by definition.

I like them, but I, too, can't see myself spending the money unless a used one comes along at an irresistible price. Those who have Rivendells love them, so there must be something to them.

It's the Riv' sperience, man. Don't you no knuthin?

Which ones? They make all sorts of frames. The point is that weight is a non issue to many riders outside of the race world. Most of Rivendell's frames are meant to carry racks, multiple bottles, etc. so the tubing is spec'd to accomodate the stress.

I think the subject of weight as it pertains to typical riding has been discussed here many times. Some are happy with so-called heavy frames and others not. And on it goes.....

What are the "comparable offerings in 'modern' bikes"?

While it's fair comparing a tourer with a modern tourer with a vintage tourer, and an all-rounder with a modern steel all-rounder and a vintage steel all-rounder. It's also fair to compare a race bike with a vintage steel race bike but not fair to throw a modern carbon fiber race bike into the mix.

My 1978 Trek 730 weighs just over 20. 19.5 is less than 20. The Roadeo is lighter. My 1985 Trek 720 is a little over 26, many people say the 720 is "flexy" and would benefit from stouter tubes- so if a built up Atlantis would be somewhat north of 26- that would not just be accepable, but preferable.

This thread got me curious to weigh my 2004 Romulus. Came in at just around 26 lbs, and that's largely to original spec plus plastic fenders and a few doo-dads. So by no means a lightweight, but it sure is a comfy, all-day rider.

This latest Riv isn't for everybody, but I'm curious about the frame angles.

I'm guessing very, very layed-back angles, which effectively shortens the seemingly-long toptube, and the layed-back headtube angle that gets along with a very short stem and/or pull-back bars.

So I wouldn't be too critical of this design proportion without having ridden it, it might ride really nicely around town and might surprise a few people.

If anyone has ridden around on one of the old Schwinns with pull-pack touring bars, like the Suburban and varsity versions that came so equipped, they'll know what I'm talking about. A lot of people really love the way they ride, very relaxing, confident handling to the extreme, and with the right saddle very comfy as well.

Wow, is that like a 2 meter wheelbase??

+1. That's what I was thinking when I saw the bike; I was curious about the frame angles as well.

Very few will ever ride one in Minnesota.

I can only think of one shop here that would potentially stock this bike. They would likely stock a built Soma or VO at a lower price point though.

It simply won't make it on to the sales floors of our two dozen plus shops.

Too much competition and this one doesn't offer nearly enough to cut it in the market.

I doubt they intend to wholesale it. There are only a few shops in the country who are allowed to retail Riv's.
For the record, the photos of any of their bikes on the website really do not do them justice. There are some closeups of the finish on the Clem and Clemintine at their Flickr group.

Marc

From my understanding, it isn't really a permission issue.

It's a margin issue.

Two shops that I frequent here were interested until they figured out the margins and market pricepoints.

It was a big "no go" from that point on.

But that wasn't really my point. The Rivendell business model restrains them to a smaller operational size.

It seems to me GP doesn't want to get any larger. Seems happy to be the size he is atm.

Cash flowing this operation must be interesting at times.

Rivendell is more of an internet direct company than a classic bicycle wholesaler looking for a distribution network. The market for these bikes is small and one mail order operation can pretty much provide all the supply needed for the demand. Rivendell has adopted a "high" margin, low volume strategy. I have no idea how high their margins are but it's higher than it would be if it sought to sell to bike shops.

Yep.

This creates a bit of an issue for a frameset like the Clem.

Tough to get the word out to potential "new" buyers, unless you are only trying to sell to an existing customer base.

Low volume is your destiny and just fine if you can keep the lights on and pay staff.