SPD cleats behind the ball of the foot?
06-23-10 | 10:42 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Alfredo Contador
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From: Where everybody knows my name
SPD cleats behind the ball of the foot?
OK so I was perusing Bicycling Magazine at the local library and came across an article call "Fast Feet".
It talks about positioning the cleat location of the SPD shoe. There are basically 3 positions.
1) At the front, right by the ball of the foot. Good for sprinting type riding
2) Slightly behind the ball of the foot. Good for criterium or something. Basically not for fast sprints.
3) At the arch. Basically way at the back of the cleat adaptor as far back as possible. Good for casual riders, commuters and touring.
My old cleat position was #1 as per most guides regarding cleat position right under the ball of my foot.
I am currently testing #2. So far mixed feeling. In fact I have developed a lower rear back ache. Although I am unsure if it has to do with the cleat repositioning or the fact that I raised my seat stem 5mm higher.
Your learned thoughts appreciated!
It talks about positioning the cleat location of the SPD shoe. There are basically 3 positions.
1) At the front, right by the ball of the foot. Good for sprinting type riding
2) Slightly behind the ball of the foot. Good for criterium or something. Basically not for fast sprints.
3) At the arch. Basically way at the back of the cleat adaptor as far back as possible. Good for casual riders, commuters and touring.
My old cleat position was #1 as per most guides regarding cleat position right under the ball of my foot.
I am currently testing #2. So far mixed feeling. In fact I have developed a lower rear back ache. Although I am unsure if it has to do with the cleat repositioning or the fact that I raised my seat stem 5mm higher.
Your learned thoughts appreciated!
06-23-10 | 11:16 AM
#3
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News to me. I always install mine at the ball of the foot on all my bikes, whether it is my touring, road or mtb.
"At the front" or "at the arch", based on the amount of forward and backward movement available on the shoe (well...the ones I have), seems to be little difference, than the description implies.
Whether mine are "directly over the ball" or "at the arch" is hard to discern a difference....maybe 1/4 of the available distance from the front...so what would that be then..."directly at the ball"?
"At the front" or "at the arch", based on the amount of forward and backward movement available on the shoe (well...the ones I have), seems to be little difference, than the description implies.
Whether mine are "directly over the ball" or "at the arch" is hard to discern a difference....maybe 1/4 of the available distance from the front...so what would that be then..."directly at the ball"?
06-23-10 | 11:16 AM
#4
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From: Montreal
Bikes: Peugeot Hybrid, Minelli Hybrid
I am more comfortable with the cleats positioned towards the back of the ball. Many people like to ride with the pedal under the arch of the foot as that makes it easier to put the foot on the ground when they stop, but that part of the foot did not evolve to take loads.
06-23-10 | 01:49 PM
#5
afraid of whales
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Front Range, CO
I'm a ball of the foot, knee over ball of foot, old school kinda guy. It's always made sense to me, it's the standard athletic position adapted to cycling. I have the same seat vs pedal position on all my bikes, road, MTB, commuter, cargo, whatever. It's the position that I make the most power from, why whould I change it?
06-23-10 | 01:53 PM
#6
I don't care either way. I fiddle with mine until I like the fit. Then I periodically fiddle with them to improve it.
06-23-10 | 02:17 PM
#7
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From: Sunnyvale, CA
Bikes: '84 Centurion Accordo RS, '06 Gary Fisher Marlin, '06 Schwinn Fastback 27, '06 Litespeed Teramo
I guess it depends on the rider's anatomy.
I used to be on the ball of the foot. Until I started having knee pain. I went to slightly behind the ball of the foot and finally settled to having my cleats right in the middle of the range of where you can install them. Thats when all forms of knee and back pain went away along with proper adjustments to everything else, of course.
You are having back pain because you raised your seat instead of lowering it. As you move the cleat back you are increasing the distance between you and the pedals just like if you move your seat back. Raising the seat made it worse, hence the back pain.
As I moved my cleats back I lowered my seat the same amount of distance ie, moved the cleats 5 mm = lower the seat 5 mm.
I used to be on the ball of the foot. Until I started having knee pain. I went to slightly behind the ball of the foot and finally settled to having my cleats right in the middle of the range of where you can install them. Thats when all forms of knee and back pain went away along with proper adjustments to everything else, of course.
You are having back pain because you raised your seat instead of lowering it. As you move the cleat back you are increasing the distance between you and the pedals just like if you move your seat back. Raising the seat made it worse, hence the back pain.
As I moved my cleats back I lowered my seat the same amount of distance ie, moved the cleats 5 mm = lower the seat 5 mm.
06-23-10 | 02:32 PM
#8
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From: Washington, DC
I keep the cleats pretty much as far forward as they go for my commuter shoes (road shoe cleats are back a little further). I wear my shoes fairly loose to avoid any restriction/numbness, so when climbing out of the saddle, my feet slide forward a bit in the shoe, effectively moving the pedal to a position just in front of the ball of my foot. This is when the positioning of the cleat is most important (essentially in a sprinter position).
When just riding along, I'm not putting enough pressure on the bottom of my foot to really notice a difference where the cleat is positioned. It works for my riding style, but probably not for everyone.
When just riding along, I'm not putting enough pressure on the bottom of my foot to really notice a difference where the cleat is positioned. It works for my riding style, but probably not for everyone.
06-24-10 | 04:56 AM
#10
i'll probably break it
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moving your cleats back puts less strain on your ankles. its really just simple physics - you gain mechanical advantage by moving the fulcrum[the cleat] back on the lever[your foot] to shorten the distance to the point where force is applied[your ankle] to the lever.
make sure your shoes are properly fitted and tight. having them loose is nearly defeating the purpose of clipless setups. might as well go back to clips and straps.
make sure your shoes are properly fitted and tight. having them loose is nearly defeating the purpose of clipless setups. might as well go back to clips and straps.
06-24-10 | 07:25 AM
#11
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From: Washington, DC
moving your cleats back puts less strain on your ankles. its really just simple physics - you gain mechanical advantage by moving the fulcrum[the cleat] back on the lever[your foot] to shorten the distance to the point where force is applied[your ankle] to the lever.
make sure your shoes are properly fitted and tight. having them loose is nearly defeating the purpose of clipless setups. might as well go back to clips and straps.
make sure your shoes are properly fitted and tight. having them loose is nearly defeating the purpose of clipless setups. might as well go back to clips and straps.
This is off the original topic, but I have found looser shoes are much more comfortable for commuting, particularly in warmer weather. My shoes already have a little extra room for cooler weather/thicker socks, so in the summer, they run even looser and work just fine. I could tighten up the straps, but as long as my foot stays in the shoe, I don't see what is to be gained by having tight shoes. In fact, I think feet benefit by having additional circulation with a looser shoe.
Fast group rides and racing are another matter, and there are good reasons to go a little tighter there.
06-24-10 | 08:50 AM
#12
i'll probably break it
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Ankle strain is not an issue.
This is off the original topic, but I have found looser shoes are much more comfortable for commuting, particularly in warmer weather. My shoes already have a little extra room for cooler weather/thicker socks, so in the summer, they run even looser and work just fine. I could tighten up the straps, but as long as my foot stays in the shoe, I don't see what is to be gained by having tight shoes. In fact, I think feet benefit by having additional circulation with a looser shoe.
Fast group rides and racing are another matter, and there are good reasons to go a little tighter there.
This is off the original topic, but I have found looser shoes are much more comfortable for commuting, particularly in warmer weather. My shoes already have a little extra room for cooler weather/thicker socks, so in the summer, they run even looser and work just fine. I could tighten up the straps, but as long as my foot stays in the shoe, I don't see what is to be gained by having tight shoes. In fact, I think feet benefit by having additional circulation with a looser shoe.
Fast group rides and racing are another matter, and there are good reasons to go a little tighter there.
06-24-10 | 09:08 AM
#13
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06-24-10 | 03:57 PM
#14
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This is only one study, limited to competetive cyclists, and did not try a given cleat location over several weeks or months to see if differrences developed, but for what its worth here is one published objective study in the peer reviewed scientific literature (anterior = towards the front or toes of the foot):
Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Dec;4(4):517-23.
Effects of shoe cleat position on physiology and performance of competitive cyclists.
Paton CD.
Faculty of Health & Sport Science, Eastern Institute of Technology, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand.
Abstract
Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Dec;4(4):517-23.
Effects of shoe cleat position on physiology and performance of competitive cyclists.
Paton CD.
Faculty of Health & Sport Science, Eastern Institute of Technology, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand.
Abstract
PURPOSE: Aerobic economy is an important factor that affects the performance of competitive cyclists. It has been suggested that placing the foot more anteriorly on the bicycle pedals may improve economy over the traditional foot position by improving pedaling efficiency. The current study examines the effects of changing the anterior-posterior pedal foot position on the physiology and performance of well-trained cyclists. METHODS: In a crossover study, 10 competitive cyclists completed two maximal incremental and two submaximal tests in either their preferred (control) or a forward (arch) foot position. Maximum oxygen consumption and peak power output were determined from the incremental tests for both foot positions. On two further occasions, cyclists also completed a two-part 60-min submaximal test that required them to maintain a constant power output (equivalent to 60% of their incremental peak power) for 30 min, during which respiratory and blood lactate samples were taken at predetermined intervals. Thereafter, subjects completed a 30-min self-paced maximal effort time trial. RESULTS: Relative to the control, the mean changes (+/-90% confidence limits) in the arch condition were as follows: maximum oxygen consumption, -0.5% (+/-2.0%); incremental peak power output, -0.8% (+/-1.3%); steady-state oxygen consumption at 60%, -2.4% (+/-1.1%); steady-state heart rate 60%, 0.4% (+/-1.7%); lactate concentration 60%, 8.7% (+/-14.4%); and mean time trial power, -1.5% (+/-2.9%). CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that there was no substantial physiological or performance advantage in this group using an arch-cleat shoe position in comparison with a cyclist's normal preferred condition.
PMID: 20029102 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
I think putting cleats wherever you find comfortable is quite reasonable.
PMID: 20029102 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Last edited by Giro; 06-24-10 at 04:11 PM.
06-25-10 | 01:07 PM
#15
Jet Jockey
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From: St. Paul, MN
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Nashbar X-frame bike, Bike Friday Haul-a-Day, Surly Pugsley.
Slightly aft is more comfortable for me. I have read that the "traditional" ball-of-feet placement was developed by studying runner's kinematics. If you were to draw a horizontal line through my cleat, with the foot aligned vertically (toes up), then the line would cross just aft of the joint behind my big toe and right through the joint behind my little toe.
Doing that shift pretty much eliminated the ITB and knee issues I had been having. It also enabled me to drop my heel a little bit into my pedal stroke with greater ease - I "lead" my stroke ever so slightly with my heel, both up and down.
Doing that shift pretty much eliminated the ITB and knee issues I had been having. It also enabled me to drop my heel a little bit into my pedal stroke with greater ease - I "lead" my stroke ever so slightly with my heel, both up and down.
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06-25-10 | 01:18 PM
#16
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From: Seattle, WA
How often do people adjust their cleats? Do you ever have trouble getting it placed just right with all the old dents where the cleat used to be?
06-25-10 | 02:49 PM
#17
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From: Columbus, OH
Bikes: '08 Surly Cross-Check, 2011 Redline Conquest Pro, 2012 Spesh FSR Comp EVO, 2015 Trek Domane 6.2 disc
This is only one study, limited to competetive cyclists, and did not try a given cleat location over several weeks or months to see if differrences developed, but for what its worth here is one published objective study in the peer reviewed scientific literature (anterior = towards the front or toes of the foot):
Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Dec;4(4):517-23.
Effects of shoe cleat position on physiology and performance of competitive cyclists.
Paton CD.
Faculty of Health & Sport Science, Eastern Institute of Technology, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand.
(clipped)
I think putting cleats wherever you find comfortable is quite reasonable.
Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2009 Dec;4(4):517-23.
Effects of shoe cleat position on physiology and performance of competitive cyclists.
Paton CD.
Faculty of Health & Sport Science, Eastern Institute of Technology, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand.
(clipped)
I think putting cleats wherever you find comfortable is quite reasonable.
The real benefit to heel-bias cleat placement comes into play during touring, long distance riding and endurance racing, when you're spending 10 - 20 (or more) hours a day on the bike. The additional effort of supporting your heel on every pedal stroke with a toe-biased cleat placement can cause RSI.
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06-25-10 | 02:56 PM
#18
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From: Calgary, AB, Canada
I've always positioned the ball of my foot over the pedal spindle. I just go ahead and place the cleat so that this lines up. Then I make sure that my heels are "close" to the crank arms and I can't easily (with the tiny bit of float I have) hit the crank arms with my heels.
I used this on all bikes. When I need a bit of extra power, I "ankle" and that'll get me up and over those nastly little rises.
For anyone who is placing their arches over the pedal spindle, as long as you are not interested in any long distances or maximizing efficiency, go ahead. Although I personally think it looks doofus and identifies you as someone who does not know anything about riding.
I used this on all bikes. When I need a bit of extra power, I "ankle" and that'll get me up and over those nastly little rises.
For anyone who is placing their arches over the pedal spindle, as long as you are not interested in any long distances or maximizing efficiency, go ahead. Although I personally think it looks doofus and identifies you as someone who does not know anything about riding.
06-25-10 | 03:10 PM
#20
Faster than yesterday
Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Evanston, IL
Interesting. Especially for tall riders?
people have been pushing their cleats back for a long time to reduce hot spots and reduce the effort needed by the calf muscles (and strain on the achilles tendon). The studies I've seen show no detriment to steady-state performance.
06-26-10 | 08:19 AM
#22
mechanically sound
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From: Dover, NH
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I've always positioned the ball of my foot over the pedal spindle. I just go ahead and place the cleat so that this lines up. Then I make sure that my heels are "close" to the crank arms and I can't easily (with the tiny bit of float I have) hit the crank arms with my heels.
I used this on all bikes. When I need a bit of extra power, I "ankle" and that'll get me up and over those nastly little rises.
For anyone who is placing their arches over the pedal spindle, as long as you are not interested in any long distances or maximizing efficiency, go ahead. Although I personally think it looks doofus and identifies you as someone who does not know anything about riding.
I used this on all bikes. When I need a bit of extra power, I "ankle" and that'll get me up and over those nastly little rises.
For anyone who is placing their arches over the pedal spindle, as long as you are not interested in any long distances or maximizing efficiency, go ahead. Although I personally think it looks doofus and identifies you as someone who does not know anything about riding.
06-26-10 | 09:05 AM
#23
Prefers Cicero
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Toronto
Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others
I use flat pedals to commute and I find I move my feet to different positions depending on speed, grade, fatigue and probably random whim. Right now I have a sore calf due to a running injury, and it feels a lot more comfortable on uphill sections when I've dropped to my lowest gear, to place the pedal under my arch to lessen the strain on my calf. When using spds or other foot retention systems, you don't have that flexibility, so you have to find a compromise position that works reasonably well for all riding conditions.
06-26-10 | 09:15 AM
#24
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From: Burnaby, BC
I read on Sheldon Brown's website a long time ago that he suggested moving the cleats back, and I did so. I like it, it makes sense to me to not stress the calf muscles, and instead position the pedal closer to under the tibia, where the quads can exert pressure directly. Also I notice that when I don't think about it at all, just jumping on a bike and hammering (across an intersection for example) I generally end up with the pedal in this position instinctively.
06-26-10 | 09:16 AM
#25
Senior Member
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From: Burnaby, BC
I've always positioned the ball of my foot over the pedal spindle. I just go ahead and place the cleat so that this lines up. Then I make sure that my heels are "close" to the crank arms and I can't easily (with the tiny bit of float I have) hit the crank arms with my heels.
I used this on all bikes. When I need a bit of extra power, I "ankle" and that'll get me up and over those nastly little rises.
For anyone who is placing their arches over the pedal spindle, as long as you are not interested in any long distances or maximizing efficiency, go ahead. Although I personally think it looks doofus and identifies you as someone who does not know anything about riding.
I used this on all bikes. When I need a bit of extra power, I "ankle" and that'll get me up and over those nastly little rises.
For anyone who is placing their arches over the pedal spindle, as long as you are not interested in any long distances or maximizing efficiency, go ahead. Although I personally think it looks doofus and identifies you as someone who does not know anything about riding.
