I've heard of people doing just that. Anybody who wants to, feel free to send me the BD frame you don't want.

It's true. The Windsor Kennet has a full Ultegra 6700 drivetrain with Ultegra brakes for $1095.95. Just the Ultegra 6700 component set is $1349.99. You can buy the component set built up on a Windsor Kennet and get frame, wheels, handlebars, saddles, headset, and stem for free...actually for about $250 less than just buying the Ultegra group alone.

Which is essentially what the name brand concerns are doing with their frames. Same off the shelf components, hung on frames made in the same shops, stickered with their name.
The difference being, of course, you pay extra on several levels for them to do so.

So now you're claiming that everybody but ONE bike manufacturer is screwing over both the wholesale and the retail market. Haven't I already seen this argument one other time in this same thread? And when called on it, I was told what is being stated implicitly is not what you're seeing.

Either some people (the few) are being bamboozled by a bike manufacturer, or some people (the many) are being bamboozled by all (but one) bike manufacturers. Which seems more likely?

The latter (note the edit deletion). You see this argument often in these threads for the simple reason that people aren't total dolts and can see what is going on before them.
Unless we're talking high end and/or custom built bikes, the commonality between mass market bikes is startling to say the least....

I wouldn't refer to it as mere plebeian bamboozling, though. It is far more dynamic than that.

What we need is a valid, empirical test between a bicycle direct bike, and any of the QBP bikes that are being compared to them.

I'd say a tourist vs. a LHT (since they're comparable).

You could use an Atlantis as a control. The problem is, nobody would come out and say 'real numbers.'

I thought I was doing that.

Donn, you in a very small minority from all of the threads I've read over the years. Anyone will send out a lemon (See: Toyota) at times, but it makes me wonder under what circumstances were you using this bike? I think for the purpose of commuting, the frame would be fine. Wheels can be returned/adjusted.

As soon as I have my money saved, I'll be going the BD route for the mere reason that was mentioned here: The group on some bikes alone is worth more than the entire bike.

Bikes direct SEEMS to be misleading/shady/i don't like them vs I actually bought one and like it

I am about to get one from BD, only debate i am still having is between Tourist, Fens, or Phantom Cross............ hmmm

He's really not. Frankly it's not worth delving into the myriad of issues because the BD fanboys just descend like seagulls on a french fry. I bought a BD bike, it was a total POS, never got ridden, and it's on consignment at my LBS at less than half of what it cost and still won't sell.

The low cost BD bikes are exactly that and you get what you pay for. The higher cost BD bikes for the most part if you shop the sales and watch for a deal can be bought cheaper without dealing with BD. While one here is touting his $2k BD bike with full Ultegra keep in mind I picked up a full carbon/full Ultegra Fuji Team Pro from Performance for $1050 by watching the sales. And got 10% back in team points to boot for accessories and can walk into any Performance store and get it worked on. None of which you get from BD.

Bad math.

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/groups...conf_GS&bike=1

Do you have a specific example to back that up? There is no similarity between your statement about "70's era Motos" and my 78 Grand Jubilé.

For those of us who keep our money here in the states, this is moot. If you add in all the non-group parts you need, the math is still good.

Wrong, compare a Winsdor tourist and a Fuji Tour. They are the same bike, geometry, and parts spec. However, there is a price difference.

That is what I would be more interested in seeing, a comprehensive list of BD bikes and their identical name brand models. As it happens, th e Tourist / Tour is th eonly one I know. I suspect that some manufacturer agreement keeps BD from publishing the list. Does anyone know of any others? Again, i am not asking about similar role bikes, I am asking about bikes that are the same other than the label.

I suspect the Dawes Lightning series uses the same frame as the Fuji Newest. Just a guess,

Honesty i am curious here because the debate about the actual product, not customer service, brand name etc, seems to be that BD FRAMES are bad, as the components are obviously name brand. It seems by my estimation they are bought bulk as leftovers, then mixed and matched on the bikes based on mostly what they have, hence the eclectic fsa, tiagra, 105 etc mixes. I seriously doubt the actual components are factory rejects, because Shimano etc. would not put their names on parts that are not up to spec regardless of who sells them, as this would affect the component manufacturer's reputation as much as that of BD.

So, as it can easily be shown that the bike is cheaper than the sum of its components, as are most full bikes anyway, and people feel that the actual frames of the bikes are bad. Usually i hear this not so much about integrity so much as the paint and finish. If it is the actual integrity of the frame in doubt, then, one can still transfer the components to a bare frame if the BD one does fail eventually. I don't think that many people describe this as happening, even those who do not like the bikes. And in that case you are still ahead on the purchase price by the value of the components.

I bring this up because I am saving to buy one of the BD bikes and I want to know if this is basically what the problem is with product they sell, in the opinion of the people who say they are no good boils down to, or if I am missing something here?

*Also, while on the topic of frame quality, are the basic Nashbar road frames any good?

I was only able to transfer 100 dollars worth of BD bike components to my current LBS winter commuter, not something I want to do on a regular basis, and still afford to keep riding a bicycle as daily transportation.

My frame on my BD bike didn't even have to fail for me to discontinue riding it.

My intention for the BD bike was for commuting purposes, and as for being sold a lemon, the particular BD bike that I purchased is still being sold in 2010 with the very same frame, wheels, and components as was in 2007.

The only thing different in 2010 than in 2007 is that BD now has a photo gallery of the bike, but still the photo gallery does not show the flex issues that I experienced in the frame, stem, and wheels that only a hands on test ride will reveal.

I see, so it was just not good quality? Geometry? I am legitimately interested because atm BD seems like the best route for me, but i also rarley see on here an objective and specific discusion of what is bad about them aside from the usual rehashed stuff about customer service and having to put it together when i search the topic.

I bought a BD bike. The company was actually pretty reasonable, but the bike they sold wasn't - so far, I've replaced an awful lot of it. However, it should be noted that the frame and fork seem quite solid, and if you buy one that's full of 100% name-brand parts, you'll probably get a reasonable price. After fixing all the bugaboos, I'm finally selling the blasted thing - next time, I'll just buy a vintage frame and build it up.

That said, if I wanted something cheap, I'd buy one of those "GMC" road bikes at Wal-Mart and load it up with old 14-speed Shimano 600 parts from eBay. For about $100, you can replace both derailleurs, the crankset, the cassette, the brakes, and put on a nice conventional handlebar setup with bar-end shifters, giving you a $270 bicycle that just sort of works. You can cut the upgrade cost in half if you buy your parts at swap meets - trust me on this one.

R/N i am looking specifically at the Windsor Fens with 105 for all drivetrain... . I currently have a Rampar R one that i scored for 50 bucks on CL, and it is in near perfect shape, i know it is a 'gaspipe' frame but works well enough that i wouldn't bother with a walmart bike. My experience with road bikes is kind of limited as i have ridden this one, a total crap ten speed that i gave away, and my brother's badass Scot *Speedster* S w full 105. I am looking to upgrade to something more modern, STI is a must, but i only really need it to last the next three or so years because with any luck when i get out of school i will be able to afford a serious bike and price won't be such a limiting factor. With that in mind, the BD one seems the way to go, but it will be a signifigant investment for me, so i want to know if i am totally wrong in this line of thought.

P.S. at the same time i am always checking CL for a good deal on a name brand bike as well.

It definitely looks that way; however, they are equipped differently. I will not say which is better; but, they are different. For one thing, BD does not seem to have any high end groupsets on that frame while Fuji goes up to Tigra/105 for $1,099, while DB seems to stop at Tigra/105 for $599. However, there are significant differences in other areas on these bikes. For example, the Fuji has a triple chain ring while the BD is a double.

Looking at the entire BD Lightning line and the Fuji Newest line there do not seem to be any exact bike for bike comparisons, even though the frames do seem the same. I do not know if the Tourist is an odd excepion or if am just not looking hard enough; but, I am not seeing many exact match comparisons.

I suspect the complaints about frames is tied to the fact that there can be little complaint about off the shelf components.

It has been my limited experience that there is about two cents worth of difference in frames at a given price point, when one makes apples to apples comparisons. And that two cents is, indeed, often found in the paint. About ten cents worth of touch up paint can take care of that.

But people are funny when it comes to value. Once they learn they have paid more for the privilege of having a hypnotic "name" sticker on a fairly commonplace frame, adorned with off the shelf components, well... they gotta have something to complain about, you know?


Personally I'll take any decent, robust frame if the components are top-shelf. You can take the stickers OFF, for all I care.

Though I believe that bd puts their stickers under the clearcoat so you can't without stripping the bike. That's not to attack them. I'd buy one to upgrade from my 40+ lb mountain road mishmash commuter if I had the cash.

That's a great deal, but you're comparing apples to oranges. I have never been interested in carbon frame bikes. It's my bias. If you're into carbon, that's cool, but I am STRICTLY a metal guy. My BD.com bike is titanium. If you can find a titanium frame road bike with full ultegra, good wheel sets, and other top end componentry for less than 2 Gs, then that's great. I shopped around for months and was not able to find any titanium ultegra bikes for anywhere close to 2 Gs.