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An e-bike is going to happen eventually

Old 06-03-19, 11:22 AM
  #76  
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Before I get an electric motor bike, I will join a rowing club. No problem keeping up with others because we are all in the same boat. For now, there are plenty of people to ride with if I want to test myself. And if I want to go at my solo pace, that is what I do. As I get slower, I can join slower groups. There are beginner groups where I can share what I have learned about riding my bike the old fashioned way. I cannot imagine finishing an electric motor bike ride and feeling the same sense of accomplishment as I do after riding one of my bikes. I suppose it is just a different sport than cycling. Or a different cycling category. Like downhill MTB where folks get a lift to the top and ride gravity-assisted downhill. I am sure they get plenty of exercise. But it is not Cycling.
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Old 06-05-19, 08:40 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Classtime View Post
Before I get an electric motor bike, I will join a rowing club. No problem keeping up with others because we are all in the same boat. For now, there are plenty of people to ride with if I want to test myself. And if I want to go at my solo pace, that is what I do. As I get slower, I can join slower groups. There are beginner groups where I can share what I have learned about riding my bike the old fashioned way. I cannot imagine finishing an electric motor bike ride and feeling the same sense of accomplishment as I do after riding one of my bikes. I suppose it is just a different sport than cycling. Or a different cycling category. Like downhill MTB where folks get a lift to the top and ride gravity-assisted downhill. I am sure they get plenty of exercise. But it is not Cycling.
One could say that...

One could say that too...

One could also say that, but one could also be wrong/mistaken...
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Old 06-05-19, 09:39 PM
  #78  
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Interesting data point:

I watched a gal on an e-bike come in off a club ride last Saturday. She took three turns on the pedal to move away from the stop sign and then, without turning the cranks any more, crossed the street, turned into the parking lot, rolled all the way across the parking lot and up to the front of the LBS. Gently uphill.

Apparently, the local bicycle club allows mopeds on their rides now.
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Old 06-05-19, 09:57 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Cychologist View Post
... at 75 I tired of getting dropped on the hills and having others wait for me. In fact, it was clear my son, who is very competitive in duathlons, no longer enjoyed riding with me.
Whatever works for you and your son is just peachy.

But I recall running up and down the sidewalk with my kids while they learned to ride, and then the years and years following pedaling slowly down to the neighborhood park with them. If my kids get to where they don't enjoy riding with me because I've slowed down, I'm changing my will.
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Old 06-06-19, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Interesting data point:

I watched a gal on an e-bike come in off a club ride last Saturday. She took three turns on the pedal to move away from the stop sign and then, without turning the cranks any more, crossed the street, turned into the parking lot, rolled all the way across the parking lot and up to the front of the LBS. Gently uphill.

Apparently, the local bicycle club allows mopeds on their rides now.
and... That is basically why I "hate" throttles... You are now riding a moped, not, a bicycle with some assistance, once you do not need to pedal the bicycle it is/has become a moped... Even a cadence sensor instead of pressure sensor in the pedal/crank, are a "fail" IMO... Why,? because you can "pretend" pedal them...
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Old 06-08-19, 06:33 PM
  #81  
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What’s the big deal with an ebike?? If you want one, get one. If you don’t want one, don’t get one.
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Old 06-08-19, 06:58 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by jackb View Post
What’s the big deal with an ebike?? If you want one, get one. If you don’t want one, don’t get one.
The big deal is, that some of us E-Assist riders still consider ourselves riding bicycles, with some assistance, Yes, from an Electric motor, instead of gearing, ( mechanical advantage) but we still put in lets say in my case, 70% of the motivating power to go from A to B, in other words we (Pedalled 70% of every KM for that particular ride), YES 30% of that trip was "motorised" but 70% of it was NOT... Then along come these "other riders " of E bikes not pedalling at all... or very little and every one of us riding an E-Bike is now riding a motorised bicycle... WRONG, some of us are still pedalling... It really depends on what type of an E-Bike you have, Not all E-Bikes, are E-Bikes, some are E-Assist E-Bikes… That you HAVE to PEDAL to get anywhere...

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Old 06-08-19, 07:37 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
The big deal is, that some of us E-Assist riders still consider ourselves riding bicycles,
I think most cyclists would disagree with you and suggest that once you go to a motor, it's irrelevant how much advantage you choose to get from it. A difference in degree shouldn't make the rider of one type a "cyclist" and the other "not."
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Old 06-08-19, 08:13 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
I think most cyclists would disagree with you and suggest that once you go to a motor, it's irrelevant how much advantage you choose to get from it. A difference in degree shouldn't make the rider of one type a "cyclist" and the other "not."
and... I would/do agree with you , most cyclists do think that way... Thing is, that I know, there actually IS a difference whether one must pedal to get anywhere, or one can just push a throttle and get there without pedaling, or putting in any effort at all.. JMO... Just like there IS a difference when riding a single speed, that most, if not all average bicycle riders today, could NOT ride, because they just do not have it in them to make it up that hill, so, they use the assistance of a 3 speed, a 10 speed, a 27 speed and now there are 33 speeds … and, without the assistance (mechanical advantage) of said gearing, I would wager bicycle ridership today would plummet to practically ZERO...

and... Thus there is also a difference in degrees of said "assistance/mechanical advantage" being used by the average bicyclist too... So, a bicyclist "purist" may think that anyone using any type of gearing is a cheat too...

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Old 06-08-19, 09:20 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
and... I would/do agree with you , most cyclists do think that way... Thing is, that I know, there actually IS a difference whether one must pedal to get anywhere, or one can just push a throttle and get there without pedaling, or putting in any effort at all.. JMO... Just like there IS a difference when riding a single speed, that most, if not all average bicycle riders today, could NOT ride, because they just do not have it in them to make it up that hill, so, they use the assistance of a 3 speed, a 10 speed, a 27 speed and now there are 33 speeds … and, without the assistance (mechanical advantage) of said gearing, I would wager bicycle ridership today would plummet to practically ZERO...

and... Thus there is also a difference in degrees of said "assistance/mechanical advantage" being used by the average bicyclist too... So, a bicyclist "purist" may think that anyone using any type of gearing is a cheat too...
I would dispute the notion of equating adding a motor with gearing, as they are not an "assist" in the same sense of the word. Regardless of gearing, it takes the same amount of work to pull a weight a vertical distance uphill. That is not true with an added motor, as it does some of that work for you.
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Old 06-09-19, 07:33 AM
  #86  
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It still remains let everyone ride what and how they want to ride. At least those riding e-bikes are not setting on the couch.

In fact the "do as I say and do" crowd are rather annoying. I get some of this since I ride a trike.
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Old 06-10-19, 04:42 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
I would dispute the notion of equating adding a motor with gearing, as they are not an "assist" in the same sense of the word. Regardless of gearing, it takes the same amount of work to pull a weight a vertical distance uphill. That is not true with an added motor, as it does some of that work for you.
I never said it was "the same", What I said is (tried to say) was that BOTH end up helping, (the overall "effect"... of the mechanical advantage or an E Motor) both are actually assisting, allowing a person that could not, or would not make it up a particular hill, to make it up that particular hill... NOW, how much assistance is too much assistance and still keep an E-Assist bike a bicycle still ...??? IMO as long as the motor cannot make it up the hill without your pedaling input, (working up some sweat) , it is assisting you, once you do not need to pedal and the motor takes you up that hill, (and you are no longer working up a sweat)... You are now riding a moped, IMO...

EDIT; and... Yes, to most people on here, ANY kind of motor assistance makes the bicycle a motorized bike, (technically 100% true) ...

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Old 06-10-19, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
I never said it was "the same", What I said is (tried to say) was that BOTH end up helping, (the overall "effect"... of the mechanical advantage or an E Motor) both are actually assisting, allowing a person that could not, or would not make it up a particular hill, to make it up that particular hill... NOW, how much assistance is too much assistance and still keep an E-Assist bike a bicycle still ...??? IMO as long as the motor cannot make it up the hill without your pedaling input, (working up some sweat) , it is assisting you, once you do not need to pedal and the motor takes you up that hill, (and you are no longer working up a sweat)... You are now riding a moped, IMO...

EDIT; and... Yes, to most people on here, ANY kind of motor assistance makes the bicycle a motorized bike, (technically 100% true) ...
I get what you're saying. I guess I'm responding to arguments I've heard elsewhere that adding a motor to a bike is no more of an assist than adding lower gears.

It's nonsense, of course. And I think they know it's nonsense. If it were really the case, why would someone spend all the $ for a motor if inexpensive gears were the same thing? From a mechanics standpoint, gearing only allows you to complete the same amount of work with less force (or torque), but it takes proportionately more time, so the amount of work performed is the same.
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Old 06-10-19, 06:51 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
I get what you're saying. I guess I'm responding to arguments I've heard elsewhere that adding a motor to a bike is no more of an assist than adding lower gears.

It's nonsense, of course. And I think they know it's nonsense. If it were really the case, why would someone spend all the $ for a motor if inexpensive gears were the same thing? From a mechanics standpoint, gearing only allows you to complete the same amount of work with less force (or torque), but it takes proportionately more time, so the amount of work performed is the same.
Touché...
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Old 06-13-19, 11:05 PM
  #90  
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I just got an e bike solution for my bikes that works for me better than a traditional e-bike. I still want to ride unmotored as much as possible, I want the exercise at full effect and
I like powering my self. However, as I get older (nearly 70 now) the distances I am willing to go, the weather conditions I am willing to ride in, and the hills I am willing to tackle
all have diminished. Part of it is knee issues, part of it is concern about having the steam to get home if I go too far, and part is knowing how much big winds take out of me.

So I now have something called "Onemotor"....it is a friction drive system (but much more sophisticated than anything before) that magnetically connects into a very small package and removes from the bike in seconds, then stores in my little riding sling bag (Patagonia Atom). I can head out with it in the bag and sometimes it will just stay there, sometimes it
will come out and get attached (10 seconds max) depending on my need. It only weighs 4.5 lbs and I don't even notice it in the bag; I've carried heavier water bottles, lol.

I also can use it on either of my two bikes as it is not a permanent install, it's a modular system with wireless PAS and wireless throttle.

I went this route because I had a dedicated e-bike when I first returned to riding 7 years ago, and they are heavy (my folders with the e-bike system installed are both less than 26 pounds) and having the motor "there" all the time seemed to mean I used it more (albeit to counteract the heavy bike weight). I just didn't want another "e-bike" because
I didn't want to be stuck on a heavy bike if I ran out of juice, and I didn't want to encourage continuous use.

I might use my motor once or twice a week, that's it. I might decide to ride someplace I haven't been able to go because of a big hill, or ride even though there is a bad headwind,
or ride with my adult son and use it to keep up. I like having it in the bag on my back as it gives me more confidence to just go and ride and not overthink where I am headed and
whether I will be exhausted on my return.

Someday, maybe, I'll be using it all the time just to be able to keep riding, period, but I like that it gives me so many options before that happens.

Seniors on bikes are not all the same, and our e-bike solutions need to be as varied as we are! Whatever works to keep us riding =). Here's a pic of one of my bikes with the
motor and drive (the other has the motor on the front wheel). In spite of the stickers, this is a Dahon Mu Uno single speed. My other Bike is a Bike Friday pakiT (where I
stole the sticker, lol).


This is not a pakit, it's a dahon mu uno with a pakit sticker on it.

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Old 06-17-19, 07:19 PM
  #91  
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This kind of discussion almost always devolves into what a real cyclist is. I had to read the Book bike tribes to discover how divided we can be. I am not sure there is an agreed on definition. I once discovered I wasn’t a real cyclist when I was struggling up a long climb with my new at the time CF road bike. A young guy on a fixie caught me and said real cyclists ride fixed.

Later at a a coffee shop he did grant me the title of roadie. I was secure in that till the racing portion of a club our group once rode with informed me I was just a club rider.

Strava gave me a reprieve for a while till we discovered there were a lot of people that only rode MUPs and didn’t even have a HRM to check.

I have often wondered if Beach cruisers were cyclists or even BMX riders.

It took open open heart surgery to show me the days of KOMs were over and cycling might just be having fun on a bike. Even maybe an E-Bike? Is the beginning of the end electric shifters?
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Old 06-19-19, 08:12 AM
  #92  
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Only electric motor bikes riders or people who contemplate becoming electric motor bike riders or people in the business of selling same would equate the difference between a fixed gear bike and a geared bike to be the same as the difference between bicycle and an electric motor bike. That is crazy talk. The industry understands this and is trying to use PA instead of ebike because PA is pedal assist just like gears are pedal assist.

I have never had a KOM but after 3 open heart surgeries, I do get an occasional PR and riding a bike has always been fun for me. I'd like to get a vintage Vespa. That would be fun too. But my wife says, "No motorcycles!".

We have a discussion because ebike sales depend on buyers using them on MUPs and in bike lanes. If ebikes are not legally defined as bicycles, then most buyers would not have a use for them. (I said most.)
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Old 06-20-19, 12:38 PM
  #93  
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I have nothing against E-bikes but I know me. The day I can't ride a bike (hope that never comes) I will be on my Ducati a lot more.
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Old 06-20-19, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Classtime View Post
Only electric motor bikes riders or people who contemplate becoming electric motor bike riders or people in the business of selling same would equate the difference between a fixed gear bike and a geared bike to be the same as the difference between bicycle and an electric motor bike. That is crazy talk. The industry understands this and is trying to use PA instead of ebike because PA is pedal assist just like gears are pedal assist.

I have never had a KOM but after 3 open heart surgeries, I do get an occasional PR and riding a bike has always been fun for me. I'd like to get a vintage Vespa. That would be fun too. But my wife says, "No motorcycles!".

We have a discussion because ebike sales depend on buyers using them on MUPs and in bike lanes. If ebikes are not legally defined as bicycles, then most buyers would not have a use for them. (I said most.)
I never said that, But, some people on here seem to think I did... What I said was, "the end result" is assistance, mechanical assistance or E-Motor assistance... I would wager my next pension cheque that if the assistance of gearing (mechanical advantage) was looked down upon as much as the E-Motor and wasn't available to use, maybe as much as 90% of the people who ride bicycles today would stop riding them, because they couldn't make it without that "assistance"... JMO... and as for the E-Motor assistance, I'm talking the Legal EU level and type of E-Bike assistance, NOT the Legal US levels for E-Bikes...

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Old 06-20-19, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
What I said was, "the end result" is assistance, mechanical assistance or E-Motor assistance...
The reason folks aren't buying your argument/position/theory is that you are including two very different things in your use of the term "assistance." As Biker395 has made clear, a rider powered bike requires the same amount of effort or work by the rider to complete a route, regardless of the gearing. He just takes more or less time. Single or multiple speeds are irrelevant as the single speed could have any gearing combo. No matter the gearing, there is no "assistance" provided the rider. When you talk of "assistance" from from an e bike, you are referencing the power stored in the battery, totally independent of the rider. Whether he has to pedal or turn a throttle to access this additional power source is immaterial.
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Old 06-20-19, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
The reason folks aren't buying your argument/position/theory is that you are including two very different things in your use of the term "assistance." As Biker395 has made clear, a rider powered bike requires the same amount of effort or work by the rider to complete a route, regardless of the gearing. He just takes more or less time. Single or multiple speeds are irrelevant as the single speed could have any gearing combo. No matter the gearing, there is no "assistance" provided the rider. When you talk of "assistance" from from an e bike, you are referencing the power stored in the battery, totally independent of the rider. Whether he has to pedal or turn a throttle to access this additional power source is immaterial.
and... I agree with you 100%. Never said it wasn't additional power... My point is both are assistance because most people could not would not ride a single speed because they don't have the energy to ride it, thus they use gearing to enable them to ride the bicycle, it's basically the same with the E-Bike, it assists/enable's one to ride a bike they couldn't ride without... IMO As to the throttle, again I agree with you, but as long as you are pedaling, and putting in over let's say 50% of the motivational power... I say you are still riding a bicycle, yes, a power assisted bicycle but still a bicycle, that is why there is an E in front of Bike, so people know exactly what you are riding... an E-Bike... JMO If I ride 100Km a day, and have a 30% assisted ride, I rode 70Km that day, pedaling 100% of that 70Km without assistance and so on...

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Old 06-20-19, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
I know I am BUT, here is another way of looking at it. If you could at max ride a single speed 100Km a day, but can ride 200Km a day on a 27 speed, how much is that gearing "assisting" you...???
Well, by that rather broad definition, you could call a the bicycle itself an "assist" as opposed to walking, no?

Personally, I do not regard ebikes as bicycles or motorcycles. They are not motorcycles, because you have to pedal them go keep going, and they are not bicycles, as they are driven by a motor (albiet with a more sophisticated throttle that relies on sensed pedal pressure). I'm not sure why people want to pigeonhole them in one category or the other. They're different enough from each so as to merit a separate category.
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Old 06-20-19, 06:19 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
Well, by that rather broad definition, you could call a the bicycle itself an "assist" as opposed to walking, no?

Personally, I do not regard ebikes as bicycles or motorcycles. They are not motorcycles, because you have to pedal them go keep going, and they are not bicycles, as they are driven by a motor (albiet with a more sophisticated throttle that relies on sensed pedal pressure). I'm not sure why people want to pigeonhole them in one category or the other. They're different enough from each so as to merit a separate category.
Broad definition...??? I don't think so, a person only has a certain amount of energy, (I need to stop, or I will die energy criteria) to blow on a single day, maxing himself/herself out... The (average) walking/running, person is only going to get lets say 50Km in a day, the (average) single speed bicyclist gets 100Km in a day and the (average) 27 speed cyclist manages to go 200Km in a day spending the "same amount of "energy/or I need to stop cause I think I will die criteria"... So, what's up.? The single speed is more efficient than walking, (assistance of wheels) the 27 speed is more efficient than the single speed (assistance of gearing)… Do you follow my train of thought there.? It comes down to "assistance/efficiency", the best word that I can think of. Was assistance..Maybe the word I am using is the wrong word... BUT, in any case "something" IS assisting/allowing, you from going from 50Km a day walking and( I can't go farther cause I think I'm going to die), to 100Km a day riding a single speed, and (I can't go farther cause I think I'm going to die), or to 200Km a day using the same amount of energy, (or at least using the max that you have in you that day, or I think I'm going to die)... as I understand it...

EDIT; and yes there IS another criteria of assistance, the E-Assist, where you can go another 30% longer/farther than the "I need to stop because I think I am going die", criteria...

BUT, it's the human input/energy that most here are concerned about... and I believe my example's have shown that the human energy input isn't all that is going on here in the bicycle world... There are other things that assist/influence how bicycling works in today's world... Like even the weight, geometry, and other things that "assist" you going further/faster... and, no they aren't E-motors, but their "effect" can be the same.... Easier, faster, farther, riding with less effort.

and NO, I am NOT missing the "point", Human effort, E-Motor effort, NOT the same...Just like a single speed human effort and a 27 speed human effort ends up not being the same.

Last edited by 350htrr; 06-20-19 at 09:09 PM. Reason: add stuff
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Old 06-21-19, 04:14 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
I know that a pedal-assist e-bike is in my future. .......


+1 a pedal-assist likely in my future as well



[/QUOTE] ....But an e-bike .... An e-bike .... an e-bike ..... [/QUOTE]

I recommend including pedal-assist nomenclature each & every time one refers to 'e-bike' - IMHO it tends to reduce (but certainly not eliminate) the instinctive opposition to pure 'throttle-type' e-bikes


[/QUOTE]When I pull the trigger for an e-bike I won't worry what anyone else thinks or says. I'll still be pedaling and enjoying the great outdoors, that's all that matters.[/QUOTE]

+1
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Old 06-22-19, 02:19 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by FamilyMan007 View Post
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+1 a pedal-assist likely in my future as well


....But an e-bike .... An e-bike .... an e-bike ..... [/QUOTE]

I recommend including pedal-assist nomenclature each & every time one refers to 'e-bike' - IMHO it tends to reduce (but certainly not eliminate) the instinctive opposition to pure 'throttle-type' e-bikes

Pedelec is the term already used to distinguish from throttled ebike
[/QUOTE]When I pull the trigger for an e-bike I won't worry what anyone else thinks or says. I'll still be pedaling and enjoying the great outdoors, that's all that matters.[/QUOTE]

+
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