Reflectors - better than lights!
08-15-12 | 11:24 PM
#51
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From: NE Indiana
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
This pic is a few feet away, from about 35 angle, which is about the max angle for a 2-facet CPSC reflector. However, as you can see, the reflectors still function at this difficult angle. On the road would mean that the car is just about zooming past you, and the reflectors are still well visible. 2-facet CPSC reflectors (I have one in my hand ATM, it's a E(3)-approved one for road vehicles) are designed with partially overlapping fields of reflection: both facets are visible to about 25 degrees from parallel, and one facet is still visible to about 35 degrees.
The second thing you can see in this pic is the wide angle of a film (= soft) reflector. It has only one facet, yet it's visible to about 35 degrees. I have measured a film reflector ("bubble wrap tape") to be visible to about 45 degree angle from parallel. However, the trade-off here is the brightness - it's the same thing as with headlights: wider angle means lower brightness. You can see that the film reflector is not as bright as the CPSCs.
The second pic gives us a nice real life viewing angle - if you're a 747 pilot looking down at someone cycling on the runway
As you can see, we are probably starting to be a bit outside 35 angle, so the CPSC reflectors have or are starting to drop off. It's nice to see the performance of the film reflectors, though. As you can see, the DOT Conspicuity Tape is pretty much the most visible thing in the pic, even from a strange angle - although the tail lights are somewhat directional, and their performance suffers a bit too from such an angle, I think. Even the humble thin Scotchlite tape and trim does quite well from such close range.
Could you identify the reflectors in the pic, by the way? I'm thinking the red one is a LED light, and on the same height are two hard reflectors. What I'm surprised is that the curved film reflectors are not that well visible. Or is that because of the strong 400 lumen reflection off the jacket that makes them just appear non-reflective in the pic?
Unfortunately, 25 ft is not a good distance for estimating reflector performance. It's a fraction of a second away on the road, which makes it meaningless. Could you make the same pic from 50-100 ft away?
In my tests, I've established that hard reflectors have their primary reflection at 2.5 degrees from parallel, and film ones have their primary reflection at about 3.8 degrees and secondary weak reflection to about 4.75 degrees. Assuming 6' distance (semi truck driver height, or blown driver side head light in a passenger car), the drop-off distance is 70 ft for film reflectors and 140 ft for a hard reflector.
This is of course assuming the reflector is right in front of the passenger side headlight - if the cyclist is on the shoulder, the angle becames smaller, as does the drop-off distance. No difference with the semi truck light height, though.
Ah yes, sorry, my mistake! You are correct that extra facets don't increase the observation angle, they only do increase the entrance angle.
What I ment to say was that after 50 ft or so, it doesn't matter if one headlight is out, and that at 50 ft you're visible anyways. What I ment about facets was that in addition to widening the long range arc, they give a bit of extra visibility when the car starts to pass you, as one of the facets reflects the scattered light from a headlight. Better option, however, is to use a second, film-type reflector, that's visible to wider angle.
The pic of the reflectors on the basket is just plain whimsical. Why you scream at me? Because you took the pic at about 2 to 3 feet from the reflectors! If a car comes up behind you at 45 do you think their going to be able to stop in time with just 2 to 3 feet stopping distance? Maybe if they were only going 5 mph they could, but again that's not the real world.
The vest you show has poorly made reflectors, because the reflector strips should be glaring back at you as a stark beaming bright white or in your vests case green light. A true safety vest has reflector strips that work far better then reflectors on cars! But that vest is the dimmest reflector ability I've seen from a vest, with that in mind even the best vest are not that great, and the world of night time worker safety is slowly getting the idea that reflectors don't do the job very well and are switching to flashing LED vests instead; see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QETvInyfiGI So even highway safety is discovering the lack of safety offered by just a reflective passive vest vs and active vest.
Can't comment on the runway pic since it's not working.
08-16-12 | 12:21 AM
#52
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The second pic gives us a nice real life viewing angle - if you're a 747 pilot looking down at someone cycling on the runway
Which reflectors are those in the pic, by the way?
Lights or reflectors, which is better?
Hmmm.
Or is that because of the strong 400 lumen reflection off the jacket that makes them just appear non-reflective in the pic?
Incidentally, here's another relevant video. This is shot from my car, with the camera on a tripod right where my head would be. I'm on Reflecto-Bike III with a full complement of reflective gear, and you can assess the lights versus reflectors both coming and going. In my opinion, the lights absolutely dominate even my top-of-the-line Reflexite V82 microprismatic tape. And this is with both headlights working
As you can see, the DOT Conspicuity Tape is pretty much the most visible thing in the pic
This level of power is now mainstream in the form of the Cygolite Hotshot, at about $35.
In the bigger picture, I've seen enough Internet debate to recognize when someone's picked their position and is too entrenched to give it up, no matter how much logic is used. People don't always have their headlights on? REFLECTORS ARE STILL BETTER. People might not recognize a reflector until point-blank range at high speeds, as it gradually fades into view? REFLECTORS ARE STILL BETTER. Reflectors suffer nasty performance losses with distance, even moreso in fog/rain/snow? REFLECTORS ARE STILL BETTER. According to you, anyway.
I think everyone who's read this far has a pretty good idea about the merits and limitations of reflectors now, so choose... but choose wisely
Lights first, reflectors as supplements (and as required to preserve your legal rights).
mechBgon, the next time you feel the urge to do another 'stuff reduction', send me a PM
There should be a surplus Cygolite Hotshot in my arsenal soon since I'll be getting a NiteRider Solas to test.
Last edited by mechBgon; 08-16-12 at 12:35 AM.
08-16-12 | 07:18 AM
#53
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I agree with Mechbgon, I think the videos and our real world observations prove that reflectors are not anywhere near as good as lights, however use them as an addition to lights as an additional aid. Anything you can add to make yourself more visible is a good thing.
The thing you all still need to realize, which I'm sure most of you do, is that night riding needs to be done with same high degree of alertness and defensive riding as you can muster and don't rely on lights and reflectors to protect you. If a person hits you while all lit up and reflectived up they would have hit you in broad daylight because they are either dumb, blind, or unattentive, so you need to ride defensively. Night riding is very fun to do, it puts a different perspective on your world around you, and it's cooler then during a 105 degree day!
The thing you all still need to realize, which I'm sure most of you do, is that night riding needs to be done with same high degree of alertness and defensive riding as you can muster and don't rely on lights and reflectors to protect you. If a person hits you while all lit up and reflectived up they would have hit you in broad daylight because they are either dumb, blind, or unattentive, so you need to ride defensively. Night riding is very fun to do, it puts a different perspective on your world around you, and it's cooler then during a 105 degree day!
08-16-12 | 09:31 PM
#54
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In the bigger picture, I've seen enough Internet debate to recognize when someone's picked their position and is too entrenched to give it up, no matter how much logic is used. People don't always have their headlights on? REFLECTORS ARE STILL BETTER. People might not recognize a reflector until point-blank range at high speeds, as it gradually fades into view? REFLECTORS ARE STILL BETTER. Reflectors suffer nasty performance losses with distance, even moreso in fog/rain/snow? REFLECTORS ARE STILL BETTER. According to you, anyway.
You misunderstand me, my good sir. I'm more interested in IF reflectors work, than if they are better than lights. I think there's no question about if lights have higher output or are visible further. The claim "better than lights" is outrageous on purpose, to get people thinking - in real life, no-one would choose (edit: just) one over another, I hope.
At this point, I'd like to thank everyone for participating, I think it's been a good thread and we've had some good discussion about both reflectors and lights vs safety issues!
That being said, reflectors do have their benefits. In many situations they work about as well as a few dollar LED attention light, but are better in the terms that they need no maintenance and are less often broken, stolen or misplaced. A reflector cannot compete with main lights for long range visibility, but it does compete with those small visibility LED units.
Last edited by proileri; 08-18-12 at 01:06 AM.
08-16-12 | 10:36 PM
#55
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Huh? If someone told me I had to choose between reflectors or lights I would not hesitate but to choose lights. Lights are visible further away as well as close up, their more visible at angles. I guess if some one said that my only light choices were to use the lowest power small dim pin prick led's well then maybe you have a point. But I could get a much more adequate lighting for under $100 for both front and rear and be seen far better then any reflector system could do.
But like I said before, I chose to use both.
A under $100 dollar lighting system could compose of a Cygolite Hotshot for $35, and the Cygolite Expilion 170 for about $55. Those are the brightest lights on the market and cost less then $100 for both. Then with the $10 you have left you could get a pair of JogALite reflective leg bands or a safety vest.
But like I said before, I chose to use both.
A under $100 dollar lighting system could compose of a Cygolite Hotshot for $35, and the Cygolite Expilion 170 for about $55. Those are the brightest lights on the market and cost less then $100 for both. Then with the $10 you have left you could get a pair of JogALite reflective leg bands or a safety vest.
08-17-12 | 03:26 AM
#56
Tractorlegs
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Heck yes I would - I would choose lights over reflectors any day. I use reflective tape on the frame of the "Zebra" bike but in real life my emphasis is on powerful, redundant (2 head lights, two tail lights) lighting. Reflectors have a place, but they pale in importance to lighting.
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08-18-12 | 01:07 AM
#57
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Heck yes I would - I would choose lights over reflectors any day. I use reflective tape on the frame of the "Zebra" bike but in real life my emphasis is on powerful, redundant (2 head lights, two tail lights) lighting. Reflectors have a place, but they pale in importance to lighting.
By the way, I'm planning to take some reflectors out on a dark road and see how far away my car headlights can hit them. I have some DOT/E-approved vehicle / bike ones and a bunch of soft ones and tape around. Anything specific you guys would like to see?
Last edited by proileri; 08-18-12 at 01:10 AM.
08-18-12 | 11:04 AM
#58
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Sure, plenty would.
Plenty of people choose just lights, often people who very much know what they're doing and know how important being seen is.
And plenty choose just reflectors for whatever reason (often because their batteries are dead, they can't afford lights, their lights were stolen or they're just riding the bike they way they bought it.)
And plenty choose nothing, just to be complete.
Reflectors do well under ideal conditions. It's the less than ideal conditions where lights do so much better than reflectors do.
Plenty of people choose just lights, often people who very much know what they're doing and know how important being seen is.
And plenty choose just reflectors for whatever reason (often because their batteries are dead, they can't afford lights, their lights were stolen or they're just riding the bike they way they bought it.)
And plenty choose nothing, just to be complete.
By the way, I'm planning to take some reflectors out on a dark road and see how far away my car headlights can hit them. I have some DOT/E-approved vehicle / bike ones and a bunch of soft ones and tape around. Anything specific you guys would like to see?
08-18-12 | 11:38 AM
#59
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Time to play the A&S card. Check your local laws. So long as you're in compliance, anything above and beyond is personal preference.
I prefer to go above and beyond- and still wanting to go even further.
I prefer to go above and beyond- and still wanting to go even further.
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08-18-12 | 11:39 PM
#60
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I agree that it can be sometimes a bit easy to forget that many people don't ride a bike as a hobby, for them it's just a practical vehicle to be used a couple times per week, or only during daylight hours. Plenty of people around here riding without any helmets, lights or reflectors - they just don't see it worth the investment or don't want to take time to put them on each time.
They have safety awareness campaigns here, where they give free reflectors to pedestrians to be seen on dark wintertime roads - I'm thinking some of our no-light cyclists could use a campaign like that as well
Last edited by proileri; 08-18-12 at 11:43 PM.
08-19-12 | 05:01 PM
#61
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I guess that's why I use reflectors, as a fall back safety precaution, but more for an added effect. But I run with two sets of headlights and front flasher, plus 3 sets of rear lights, so if any one were to go dead I would still have the others. Obviously I know there are people who can't afford multiple lights but they can get adequate to be seen and to see with lighting for under $100 for both front and rear, combined with cheap reflective safety vest and other reflective gear they would be plenty safe. Some of these people who cry about the cost of lighting up a bike think nothing of it go buy coffee at Starbucks every day, or a 6 pack of beer every night, or a pack of cigs every day. Just sayin.
09-15-12 | 09:08 AM
#62
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My take on this subject can be found here
Now, as for visiblity tests, I guess I'm going to have to recruit some friends w/cars to see how truly visible I am.
Oh, and for Heaven's sake... If you find a thread like this, especially if you're adding a link to my posts, please PM me, I love to join in the action if I can.
Now, as for visiblity tests, I guess I'm going to have to recruit some friends w/cars to see how truly visible I am.
Oh, and for Heaven's sake... If you find a thread like this, especially if you're adding a link to my posts, please PM me, I love to join in the action if I can.
09-15-12 | 09:55 AM
#63
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My take on this subject can be found here
Now, as for visiblity tests, I guess I'm going to have to recruit some friends w/cars to see how truly visible I am.
Oh, and for Heaven's sake... If you find a thread like this, especially if you're adding a link to my posts, please PM me, I love to join in the action if I can.
Now, as for visiblity tests, I guess I'm going to have to recruit some friends w/cars to see how truly visible I am.
Oh, and for Heaven's sake... If you find a thread like this, especially if you're adding a link to my posts, please PM me, I love to join in the action if I can.
Anyway, interesting article of the guy being hit and killed, but your analysis takes a huge liberty on assumptions with no facts to even closely resemble what really happened. I'm sure the investigation that wasn't publicised probably got to within 95% of the cause of the accident. I think the person behind him simply wasn't paying attention, or the lights being used were really cheap dim lights that the driver in the rain simply never saw. Most accidents that are the motorists fault are driver unawareness...which is true with car vs car too.
Regardless if your riding at night you should take needed precautions if your desire is to live a longer life. And like I said earlier you can get a good lighting system for under $100 that would be better then most riders on the road, and I'll add to that-a great one for one for under $250 that would be among the best and very few with such lighting on the road. Most riders that use lights, where I live anyway, are lucky if they spend $30 on a front and rear system total, and most riders don't spend a dime!!
But for $100 a person can get the Cygolite ExpiliOn 300 headlight which puts out 300 lumens on high for $59; and the Cygolite Hotshot tail light for $34; both are rechargeable and I know the headlight's battery is replaceable so a person can have two battery packs if they wanted, but don't think the tail light battery is replaceable.
Combine that with a high vis neon green safety vest and ankle reflective straps and you don't need all the weird reflective stuff attached to your bike...unless you want to, it won't harm anything but I doubt it would do anything more since reflectors only work if the light hitting it is at the right angle. Reflectors tape on the bike frame and wheels looks great in the photos because their intended to look great in photos, but in real life the angle is rarely that perfect like the photo demonstrates and thus reflectors sometimes are almost ineffective. You can drive at night with your car and drive down a street with cars parked on the side, and most of the reflectors barely illuminate then add rain to the mix and see what happens. I've come up behind cars at night without the rear lights working and would never see the tail light reflectors till your about 8 feet from them! Heck I saw the car's mass before I saw the reflectors!! Well if your moving at 45 in a car that same thing happens with a cyclist in front of you...you may hit them.
09-15-12 | 10:12 AM
#64
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There was a guy riding around Austin Tx that had a powerful strobe flashing at half second intervals not forward or back but directly at the ground to his left - It was interesting in that it made a ring of light around the rider that you tried to stay out of... Of course he also had standard reflectors and lights but that ring of light really defined his AO...
09-15-12 | 10:44 AM
#65
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There was a guy riding around Austin Tx that had a powerful strobe flashing at half second intervals not forward or back but directly at the ground to his left - It was interesting in that it made a ring of light around the rider that you tried to stay out of... Of course he also had standard reflectors and lights but that ring of light really defined his AO...
This is kind of cool too but expensive and not really effective to see by but it is seemingly very noticeable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMdsH...eature=related
09-15-12 | 04:44 PM
#66
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PM you? As long as you made a post on an particular thread you should get an update sent to your e-mail as soon as anyone post's regardless if it's quoting you or not. If your not and want that service you need to go into your settings located at the top right of this forum page.
Anyway, interesting article of the guy being hit and killed, but your analysis takes a huge liberty on assumptions with no facts to even closely resemble what really happened. I'm sure the investigation that wasn't publicised probably got to within 95% of the cause of the accident. I think the person behind him simply wasn't paying attention, or the lights being used were really cheap dim lights that the driver in the rain simply never saw. Most accidents that are the motorists fault are driver unawareness...which is true with car vs car too.
My apartment was located just out of frame on the lower left corner of this photo
As for the quality of the lights, I haven't seen anything about what he was using, except that he had working lights. I just presented a hypothesis based on personal observations (>40 years worth) of other people riding bicycles. Headlights shine to the front, tail lights shine to the rear, and neither are usually very effective from the side during a blustery rainy night with lots of glare from a wet road.
Last edited by K'Tesh; 09-15-12 at 05:07 PM.
09-15-12 | 08:17 PM
#67
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I'm not sure why the light manufactures aren't stepping up their game on this side lighting problem, it's been known for years to exist yet they do nothing or very little. But patience as more and more companies slowly figure this out. I sometimes wonder if these lighting companies even have a cyclist working for them!! Some companies are now using flimsy mounts to fasten a rear light, why? to be cheap? That's insane, there's been reports of cyclists hitting a bump and the strap broke and the light went flying sometimes without the cyclist even knowing till they gets home and discovers they was riding around at night with no tail light!! Great going light companies.
09-15-12 | 08:42 PM
#68
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Light manufactures are slowly coming up to steam on this side lighting business, but I do mean slowly. So far the only front light that can be seen from the side is the Phillips Saferide, they incorporated a ring on the perimeter of the lens that glows, plus they use the same lighting pattern motorcycles use so the light is visible on the pavement to the sides of the bike. Also tail light wise is also slow, the first with adequate, actually quite good side illumination was the Cateye LD600, if you mount it vertical it could be seen extremely well from the sides this light is still around but the brightness level from the rear isn't as intense as newer models. Blackburn Mars 4 has amber side lighting but it is on the smaller side and not as intense as the Cateye ( I own that both those llights), and then the Light & Motion Vis 180 works very well too, as does the Serfas USL-TL60 the Shield.
I'm not sure why the light manufactures aren't stepping up their game on this side lighting problem, it's been known for years to exist yet they do nothing or very little. But patience as more and more companies slowly figure this out. I sometimes wonder if these lighting companies even have a cyclist working for them!! Some companies are now using flimsy mounts to fasten a rear light, why? to be cheap? That's insane, there's been reports of cyclists hitting a bump and the strap broke and the light went flying sometimes without the cyclist even knowing till they gets home and discovers they was riding around at night with no tail light!! Great going light companies.
I'm not sure why the light manufactures aren't stepping up their game on this side lighting problem, it's been known for years to exist yet they do nothing or very little. But patience as more and more companies slowly figure this out. I sometimes wonder if these lighting companies even have a cyclist working for them!! Some companies are now using flimsy mounts to fasten a rear light, why? to be cheap? That's insane, there's been reports of cyclists hitting a bump and the strap broke and the light went flying sometimes without the cyclist even knowing till they gets home and discovers they was riding around at night with no tail light!! Great going light companies.
As far as the lighting issue in general goes... I think it has to do with how cycling is viewed. Your much vaunted SafeRide was designed for the German and other EU markets where bicycles are considered vehicles. Here in the States, bicycles are viewed as recreational equipment or even toys. IMO, that mindset may have something to do with it.
09-15-12 | 09:00 PM
#69
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There was a guy riding around Austin Tx that had a powerful strobe flashing at half second intervals not forward or back but directly at the ground to his left - It was interesting in that it made a ring of light around the rider that you tried to stay out of... Of course he also had standard reflectors and lights but that ring of light really defined his AO...
09-15-12 | 09:11 PM
#70
Thunder Whisperer
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From: NE OK
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You could use something like the Bike Brightz to make your enlightened bubble of personal space. https://bikebrightz.com/
No experience with, but come to think of it, I just might get one to put on the kid bike before doing any more upgrading of my own.
No experience with, but come to think of it, I just might get one to put on the kid bike before doing any more upgrading of my own.
09-15-12 | 09:30 PM
#71
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I can't agree with you more on this, but even the EU markets don't have a significant tail light out yet. I've been on the Ripple and Wipple sites and nothing outstanding from either in rear lighting. The best for the money is the Moon Shield which is the same as the Serfas Shield sold here, and the L & M Vis 180. It appears that the L & M Vis 180 has my vote though, I've seen tail light comparisons and this one seems to win hands down. Problem with these rear lights is that their really too small, why not make a 6 LED row of lights with 1 watt each LED slightly arched, and be powered by 6 or 8 AA rechargeable bats? Oh, that's right we all a bunch of weight weenies to weak to pedal around with a light that heavy...geez.
09-15-12 | 09:34 PM
#72
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From: NE Indiana
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
You could use something like the Bike Brightz to make your enlightened bubble of personal space. https://bikebrightz.com/
No experience with, but come to think of it, I just might get one to put on the kid bike before doing any more upgrading of my own.
No experience with, but come to think of it, I just might get one to put on the kid bike before doing any more upgrading of my own.
09-15-12 | 10:35 PM
#73
Marqueteur
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
Originally Posted by no1mad
You could use something like the Bike Brightz to make your enlightened bubble of personal space. https://bikebrightz.com/
Weird, I haven't see this light at our Meijer in town, I'll have to go again and see if they have it. Problem is they make it look good by using a shiny floor and a white back drop, it would be interesting to see it at night on the street. One thing about Meijer, if I don't like it I can take it back.
Looks like only the glow variant has direct visibility, but the way they show it you'll have it shining right in your eyes if you look at your bike. Not a good idea in my book.
Tor
09-15-12 | 10:41 PM
#74
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There are products on the market that sends out a laser beam of light onto the road with a line, arrows, or circles on both sides of the bike to mark the path for a car to stay out of. I've never seen these lights in real life yet so I can't tell you how effective it is though. But if anything it's cool looking.
But they're not very bright at all (after all, the light is being spread out over a long line), and the laser is being aimed at the ground which could very well be black -- making it even less bright.
As I see it, a driver in a car would probably never notice it.
Now, if they could go with a better color than red -- green or blue (but it would cost more) and if they could increase the power 100 fold to 500 mW per side (causing serious risk to eyes if somebody does look into it which probably means problems with the FDA and increasing the cost greatly) ... then maybe. But as it stands ... it looks neat, but I can't see it actually making you safer from cars than a standard decent headlight, taillight and a sidelight of some sort would.
09-16-12 | 12:19 AM
#75
Commander, UFO Bike
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,438
Likes: 23
From: Subject to change
Bikes: Giant, Trek
Combine that with a high vis neon green safety vest and ankle reflective straps and you don't need all the weird reflective stuff attached to your bike...unless you want to, it won't harm anything but I doubt it would do anything more since reflectors only work if the light hitting it is at the right angle. Reflectors tape on the bike frame and wheels looks great in the photos because their intended to look great in photos, but in real life the angle is rarely that perfect like the photo demonstrates and thus reflectors sometimes are almost ineffective. You can drive at night with your car and drive down a street with cars parked on the side, and most of the reflectors barely illuminate then add rain to the mix and see what happens. I've come up behind cars at night without the rear lights working and would never see the tail light reflectors till your about 8 feet from them! Heck I saw the car's mass before I saw the reflectors!! Well if your moving at 45 in a car that same thing happens with a cyclist in front of you...you may hit them.
I went out tonight took several pictures of my bike (sorry, I only have dry conditions) from several distances in real world locations.
Residential Street 1/4 block, crossing
Residential Street 1/4 block, from behind
Residential Street 1/4 block, oncoming
City Street crossing 2/3 block away
City Street from behind (10X zoom)
For this test, I stuck with my commercially available lights for under $50USD each (the PB 5LED Beamer and the Superflash both on steady). My camera's flash is burned out, so the images with the bike illuminated was either with ambient light or my NR MiNewt X2. I couldn't find someone to assist me, but I think the images are pretty clear, lights alone don't come anywhere near the visibility as lights with reflective films applied when a light is shown across it.
Some other points... Passive reflectivity from applied retro-reflective films don't get lost, and don't ever need to go through a clothes washer, they don't make you too warm, and don't weigh much.
As for car's reflectors, I'll agree with you, they're a joke. Those hard plastic prisms are very directional, and don't give as good as they get. I hope to test again in daylight and in with dark/wet conditions when I get a chance.
Last edited by K'Tesh; 09-16-12 at 09:31 AM.