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Old 10-09-17, 06:49 PM   #26
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Q. What's the difference between a musician and an extra large pizza?
A. An extra large pizza will feed a family of four.
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Old 10-09-17, 06:51 PM   #27
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Old 10-09-17, 08:27 PM   #28
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It's amazing how eager people are to find reasons for staying on the couch.

Some extreme endurance athletes get arrythmias. OK. Most people - even most people who race bikes, run marathons, do triathlons - don't come into that category. And every bit of serious research I ever heard of indicates that people who take intensive exercise tend to live longer, and enjoy better health later in life, than those who don't.

It's my experience that most people don't slow down because they got old, they get old because they slowed down. Monitor your health, by all means, but don't imagine that you'll be better off if you avoid hard exercise.
Haywire Heart doesn't go that way at all, the three authors look at several case studies of groups and individuals, as well as Lennard Zinn exploring his own experience with AFib. The impetus for the book came from an article published in Velo a short while back, the response, both negative outcries and people relating their own experiences with arrhythmias related to training. They cover adjusting to the requirements when someone id diagnosed with a serious arrhythmia that is threatening so it is possible to remain active. And this is something I can relate to because of my PD.

None of the authors advocate that no one cease hard training or their competition unless they are diagnosed with a possibly dangerous condition. This is not aimed at joe couch potato, its really more of a primer for someone that is interested in learning more about these anomalies should they feel there is a problem. Some might find that the discussions put them off, that is up to each individual I suppose.

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Old 10-09-17, 09:28 PM   #29
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Haywire Heart doesn't go that way at all, the three authors look at several case studies of groups and individuals, as well as Lennard Zinn exploring his own experience with AFib. The impetus for the book came from an article published in Velo a short while back, the response, both negative outcries and people relating their own experiences with arrhythmias related to training. They cover adjusting to the requirements when someone id diagnosed with a serious arrhythmia that is threatening so it is possible to remain active. And this is something I can relate to because of my PD.

None of the authors advocate that no one cease hard training or their competition unless they are diagnosed with a possibly dangerous condition. This is not aimed at joe couch potato, its really more of a primer for someone that is interested in learning more about these anomalies should they feel there is a problem. Some might find that the discussions put them off, that is up to each individual I suppose.

Bill

I suspect tourisme is reacting to Machoman's "click bait" thread title ... and that Machoman is the one looking for an excuse to give up cycling.

If the book is good (and it may well be, based on your review of it), unfortunately Machoman's over-reaction puts it into a negative light.

Last edited by Machka; 10-09-17 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 10-10-17, 03:58 AM   #30
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I can't help but think there might be other triggers involved in some of these high-profile athlete deaths, not the least being DVT. Mercer had flown on a short-haul flight a day or two before he died while driving his motor vehicle. Other athletes who have died suddenly have engaged in extensive air travel.

DVT is insidious. It doesn't present many symptoms, and you have to know what you are looking for. I am aware that autopsies should turn up clot issues, but I can't help but think there might be other chemical changes in the blood that don't quite get as far as clotting that can have an effect on the heart.

This is all conjecture on my part, but after Machka's very serious bout with DVT almost a decade ago, as a result of a long-haul flight, I think that not much actually is known about it.
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Old 10-10-17, 05:30 AM   #31
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I suspect tourisme is reacting to Machoman's "click bait" thread title ... and that Machoman is the one looking for an excuse to give up cycling.

If the book is good (and it may well be, based on your review of it), unfortunately Machoman's over-reaction puts it into a negative light.
I did get a bit depressed upon hearing the info - no one loves cycling as much as I do. I guess i was looking for some solace and encouragement to carry on. After all we're cycling ultimately because we think it's good for us.

I also bought the book - haywire heart.

But don't discount the facts and information that is out there now - it's no urban myth - I have a story myself - i was told about a friend of an uncle who runs marathons and one morning having completed a morning run just slumped on the desk and passed away. Funny thing is 2 nights before this my uncle (who is a doctor) had dinner with him and even commented how healthy he looked !

You really cant see nor feel the damage until it's too late..... I'm scared.
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Old 10-10-17, 06:19 AM   #32
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I did get a bit depressed upon hearing the info - no one loves cycling as much as I do. I guess i was looking for some solace and encouragement to carry on. After all we're cycling ultimately because we think it's good for us.

I also bought the book - haywire heart.

But don't discount the facts and information that is out there now - it's no urban myth - I have a story myself - i was told about a friend of an uncle who runs marathons and one morning having completed a morning run just slumped on the desk and passed away. Funny thing is 2 nights before this my uncle (who is a doctor) had dinner with him and even commented how healthy he looked !

You really cant see nor feel the damage until it's too late..... I'm scared.
But so what???

As someone else mentioned, none of us is going to make it out of here alive. We've all got to go someway, somehow.

However, we've got choices. We can choose to be couch potatoes ... and die. We can choose to cycle ... and die. We can choose to live in fear ... and die. We can choose to live life ... and die.

It's up to you.

Now let me tell you a story ...

When I was 4 years old, I developed Rheumatic Fever and the lingering side effect was two damaged valves.

When I was young, I was told that I shouldn't do anything ... I should take it easy. I was kept out of gym classes right from when I started school until I was a teen ... I'm not sure whose idea that was, but it meant that I didn't develop the usual sports skills that most kids pick up. (However, for some reason, my parents let me walk and cycle). Finally in my teen years, I was allowed to do more ... but as I recall there was some reluctance ... Drs etc. weren't sure. I was also put on penicillin until I was 18 and was told that my immune system was really weak and that I should not ever get strep throat or I would die. So I was kept out of school a lot.

As I got older, I was told that I was too fragile to do much of anything. I was told I shouldn't plan to attend university or anything ... it would all be too much for me.

When I became an adult, the choice was mine. I could essentially do nothing ... take it easy, protect myself. Or I could do what I wanted to do. I could get education and get into bodybuilding and then cycling. I opted to live my life and do what I wanted to do.

I have regular heart checks, and during the early part of one check, they noticed "something". My GP got all worried and told me to do as little as possible until she got back to me. Take the bus to work (rather than cycling), come home after work and nap, etc. I think I did that for a few days ... and then figured I couldn't live like that so I kept doing what I normally did: cycling to and from work, cycling after work, etc. A couple months went by and I didn't hear from her, another month or so ... and I finally contacted the clinic. They'd gone through an office move and had lost my file, then my Dr retired so no one knew anything about my situation. Great!

But meanwhile, I had gone for one more heart test .... an ultrasound. The cardiac specialist himself did the test, and brought in a group of students to see ... because I had these two damaged valves, I was a good teaching specimen. During that ultrasound, the students asked questions, the cardiac specialist explained, and I heard it all.

Turns out, yes, I've got two damaged valves, but because of the exercise I had been doing ... all that cycling ... my heart was stronger than "usual" for my age and size and was compensating for the backwash of the valves. He was actually impressed, and told me (and all the students) that I should continue cycling. In fact, I should continue cycling (and exercising) for as long as I could.

Right around that time, I got into long distance cycling ... Randonneuring. Audax. I have done and continue to do a whole lot of cycling.

I've been for more tests, including an angiogram just a few years ago, and things are OK ... except for those two damaged valves. Sometimes they tell me that I may need a valve replacement at some point ... always they tell me to keep exercising, keep on cycling my long, long distances.

Since I was 4 years old, I knew that something was wrong with my heart. Since 2009, when I developed DVT (as Rowan mentions above) I discovered I have a genetic predisposition to developing blood clots and I have a tendency toward a high homocysteine level which could lead to heart failure. So yes, there are moments when it scares me a little (had another one of those moments just recently ... and I'll be going to the cardiac clinic for more test shortly) ......... but I've made it to 50 so far, there are things I can do to reduce the risk, and I'm fitter and stronger than many 50 year olds. But best of all ... I've done a lot, I continue to do a lot, and I enjoy life! And there's no way I'm about to give up cycling!!
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Old 10-10-17, 09:57 AM   #33
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And there's a huge difference between the stress and effort involved just doing high mileage, and high mileage at the speeds and sustained effort these top athletes train for and achieve.

These people really are exceptional.
That was my belief too. Common sense (a misnomer if there ever was one) would tell you that there is a difference between someone who goes a long distance at a casual pace and someone who does it as fast as they possibly can.

The data I've seen is sketchy, and doesn't support or refute that position.

As for me ... eff it. I'm to old and to wizened to go around chasing my tail worrying about this and that and every medical exercise in correlative statistics.

1. I am not living forever.
2. I intend to make the most of my life while I am alive.
3. For now at least, #2 is impossible without riding a bike. So far, it's made me much healthier and happier.
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Old 10-10-17, 10:03 AM   #34
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I have heard a whole bunch of drummer put-down jokes .... that one is new. Thank you.


How many drummers does it take to change a light bulb?

"Why? Oh wow! Is it like dark, man?"
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Old 10-10-17, 10:15 AM   #35
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But don't discount the facts and information that is out there now - it's no urban myth - I have a story myself - i was told about a friend of an uncle who runs marathons and one morning having completed a morning run just slumped on the desk and passed away. Funny thing is 2 nights before this my uncle (who is a doctor) had dinner with him and even commented how healthy he looked !
You don't have (or haven't shared) any evidence that the running in fact did it. Maybe it was just his time.
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Old 10-10-17, 10:58 AM   #36
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100% of people who drank orange juice died.


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Old 10-10-17, 12:03 PM   #37
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Mr. Machoman ... if you think you will live a longer and better life not riding, please stop riding.

See how easy?

If yo want to ride ... ride.

Even easier.

You have read so many stories here .... (Thanks maxchka, btw) and one thing you can glean is this---we are all individualas. What kille done might save another, or vice versa.

Further, no one knows why anyone dies, really? Do we come here with some genetic code to go crazy and explode inside, or shrivel up, or whatever, at some certain age? Is there some perfect Path for each one of us(and different for each one) which will keep each of us healthiest and happiest for longest?

If so ... how can anyone else tell us what it is? How can we tell?

Of this i am pretty certain, caution and precaution make sense---I use lights when I ride art night.

Fear is Anti-Survival.

if you are afraid you are using some portion of your consciousness being afraid ... and not reasoning, not taking in and processing information, not analyzing properly.

Some people are afraid of the dark. (fact.) Therefore in a low-light situation they are not using every sense to gather information ... because some portion of their brains are imagining scary fantasies and some part is just shut down by fear.

So great. That person doesn't get killed by a robber or eaten by the bogeyman or bit by a vampire ... she trips on a rug and breaks her neck.

Mr. Machoman ... what are you Really afraid of? have you fully examined your fear? Have you figured out if any of it is rational ... and if it has any potential benefits?

Rationally ... you might be one of the folks who dies suddenly from overexercise.You might be someone who dies suddenly from under-exercising. You might be someone who has a stroke for no predictable reason. You might be someone who lives to be 99 no matter what you do.

Because you have Zero indication of which class you fit into ...

Really stupid story. There's a guy in Indiana who won't stop snapping his fingers. When someone asks, he say. it keeps tigers away." The inquirer says, "Tigers don't even live on this continent" The snapper say, "Damned effective, isn't it."

Stupid to engage in meaningless ritual behavior which in no way improves one's safety or quality of life. Stupid to be afraid of things which present no real or immediate threat. Stupid to waste energy doing something which ultimately is pointless ....

As has been said repeatedly, we all leave one way or another.

If, to you, being afraid seems like the best path, I cannot argue. I cannot follow.

I have been unable to ride for a few days because of a huge open sore on my heel. Tonight I will ride---it isn't healed completely, but I think ti is healed enough that I won't permanently stop the healing by riding.

I will not fear tigers.

By the way ... I developed severe AFib after several years Off the bike. Maybe it was because I got out of shape, or maybe it was because I was trying to get back in shape ... or maybe it was just some crazy genetic thing where my heart suddenly said, "Let's beat three times as fast, it'll be fun!"

if I am not careful, I can prompt my heart into trying to self-destruct. if I don't exercise the rest of me self-destructs.

if you can't win, enjoy playing.
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Old 10-10-17, 12:29 PM   #38
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Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be
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Old 10-10-17, 12:38 PM   #39
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That was my belief too. Common sense (a misnomer if there ever was one) would tell you that there is a difference between someone who goes a long distance at a casual pace and someone who does it as fast as they possibly can.

The data I've seen is sketchy, and doesn't support or refute that position.

As for me ... eff it. I'm to old and to wizened to go around chasing my tail worrying about this and that and every medical exercise in correlative statistics.

1. I am not living forever.
2. I intend to make the most of my life while I am alive.
3. For now at least, #2 is impossible without riding a bike. So far, it's made me much healthier and happier.
In case y'all are interested, you can view the article here. It is a summary of other studies on the subject. It requires Medscape registration, but is free.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/868915_2
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Old 10-10-17, 12:44 PM   #40
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Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be
.
Psalm 139:16
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Old 10-10-17, 02:31 PM   #41
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Doesn't it all come down to perceived probability? Imaginary risk assessment?

Basically ... "I have invented this problem for myself but I can't invent anyone to fix it. Help!"
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Old 10-10-17, 04:26 PM   #42
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Very scary - Drinking water kills!

The government is hiding dangerous facts about Dihydrogen Monoxide from you.
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Old 10-10-17, 04:43 PM   #43
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100% of people who drank orange juice died.


-Tim-
Same with water.

Oops! gl98115 beat me too it.
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Old 10-10-17, 04:44 PM   #44
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How many drummers does it take to change a light bulb?

"Why? Oh wow! Is it like dark, man?"
How do you know a drummer is knocking on the door?

Because he knocks faster and faster and then doesn't come in when you tell him to.
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Old 10-10-17, 04:46 PM   #45
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100% of people who drank orange juice died.


-Tim-
That is categorically false. I drank some OJ this morning and I feel fi.sdgsjkDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
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Old 10-10-17, 07:40 PM   #46
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Now let me tell you a story ...
A "funny" thing about that story is this ...

I have dealt with the heart thing my whole life ... always figured that was my biggest concern.

And then twice in the last two years, I've developed pre-cancer and had to have surgery for it. Both times I felt really insulted. Cancer??????? I'm not supposed to get cancer!! I've got a heart thing ... that's my thing. Not cancer!

But that's life ... you just never know.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:05 PM   #47
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However, we've got choices. We can choose to be couch potatoes ... and die. We can choose to cycle ... and die. We can choose to live in fear ... and die. We can choose to live life ... and die.

It's up to you.

Now let me tell you a story ...

When I was 4 years old, I developed Rheumatic Fever and the lingering side effect was two damaged valves.

When I was young, I was told that I shouldn't do anything ... I should take it easy.
...
Turns out, yes, I've got two damaged valves, but because of the exercise I had been doing ... all that cycling ... my heart was stronger than "usual" for my age and size and was compensating for the backwash of the valves. He was actually impressed, and told me (and all the students) that I should continue cycling. In fact, I should continue cycling (and exercising) for as long as I could.
...
I've made it to 50 so far, there are things I can do to reduce the risk, and I'm fitter and stronger than many 50 year olds. But best of all ... I've done a lot, I continue to do a lot, and I enjoy life! And there's no way I'm about to give up cycling!!
Nice ... congratulations!
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Old 10-11-17, 08:04 AM   #48
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The couch and TV remote have killed many times more people than cycling, running or swimming ever will.

I have a horrific family history of early cardiac disease, disability and death. I was also obese through most of my childhood, adolescence and young adulthood and continue to struggle with my weight. I took up cycling as running was too hard on my ankles and knees and, though still a clyde, have lost weight and gained fitness. Despite this I had two heart attacks, each of which required a stent to be placed. I've had more than one person say something along the lines of "See, all that bike riding didn't do you a bit of good. You still had a heart attack."

Whole truth be told, genetics set me up for early heart attacks from the start and I didn't do myself any favors in my younger years. Even if I had been more health conscious, I probably would have had one or more heart attacks at some point, maybe not quite as soon. The interesting fact is, that while cycling didn't prevent my heart attacks, my cardiologist credits being an avid rider with my rapid and complete recovery, and perhaps even saving my life. He is impressed that I suffered no appreciable damage and have a cardiac ejection fraction that is in the high normal range. I walked out of the hospital in two days and was back to work without restriction in two weeks (the shortest time allowed). He told me to keep cycling as much as I wanted and his wife rides with my cycling group and has been on our Tour de Cure team. If it's good enough for my cardiologist and his family, it's good enough for me.
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Old 10-11-17, 10:30 AM   #49
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The interesting fact is, that while cycling didn't prevent my heart attacks, my cardiologist credits being an avid rider with my rapid and complete recovery, and perhaps even saving my life.
When my heart went crazy, I ignored it for a long time. I could afford to because even though I had been off the bike and sedentary for 6-8 years, the two decades before that I had been a fitness freak, so my heart was able to handle the stress.

I might indeed have a heart attack struggling up a hill someday. If it weren't for cycling, I would have died in my own driveway a few years ago. Seems like a win/win even if I do croak on a hill some day .... because after my surgery I got back on my bike.
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Old 10-15-17, 09:29 PM   #50
Carbonfiberboy 
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C'mon, kids. The issue is that if you overdo it too early, you'll be screwed out of doing what you love later in life. That's not a good outcome in my book. OTOH, an old poll of TdF racers found that something like 80% of them would take something undetectable which would guarantee them a GC win, but also would guarantee they would die 10 years later. So there's that.

In fact, old GC champs are mostly still in good shape. Old Mr. Universe champs are still extremely fit.

I do know a few older cyclists who've gotten Afib and had to slow it way down or quit entirely, all from doing too much with too little recovery. The secret is complete recovery every once in a while, and good recovery during the season. These friends of mine did not overtrain. They just overworked their hearts, too many intervals, too many weeks in a row.

I've been training hard for over 20 years, since I was 50. I recently had a couple of heart exams which found that my heart is in great shape except for some plaque in a coronary artery, but who knows when that was laid down. So I take a statin now, but I don't worry about it. I've eaten plant-based for 40 years and my cholesterol is actually pretty good. I do major hard rides in the mountains every year and train appropriately. I've become one of the fastest riders my age in this area, mostly by not aging out rather than from talent. So it's some genetics (that plaque), and some overdoing it, which is preventable.

BTW, I regard a hard 60-80 mile ride to be defined as averaging over 90% LTHR or over 80% MHR. I ride that hard quite frequently, but I recover well between them.

So never quit, train hard, but train smart. If you don't, you won't be able to.
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