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Old 12-29-17, 10:36 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Gerryattrick View Post
Lazy is a relative term, not an absolute.

Some would say people who have 20 gears are lazy because they don't ride fixed or single-speed.
Some cruel people would say that people who lie on their backsides while riding, instead of sitting upright, are even lazier.
I walked a four mile round trip to the supermarket to get some meat today. Some lazy buggers had actually cycled there.

I cannot understand the negative comments from smug, self-satisfied riders who think that, because they do it the hard way, then everyone should. They are too blinkered to understand that not everyone is lucky enough to have the health and strength that they themselves have. E-bikes are an annoyance to a few but a boon to many.

I still ride hard rides on my human-powered bikes at the age of 70, and see no reason why I shouldn't do so into my 80s. I am not proud of this but grateful for the genes my parents gave me and the luck to remain relatively injury free. If an e-bike means I can go on beyond that, bring it on.

As far as the argument goes about inconsiderate e-bikers on paths and trails goes, there are enough manual bike riders around with these traits as well. Should all cyclists be banned because of some miscreants or should the speed rules be enforced more effectively?

A few things.

1. Most ebikers I see are 20 somethings, and do not appear disabled in any way. Some of them roll by with surfboards on their bikes. I don't think anyone here begrudges a motorized bike for someone who truly needs it.

2. Yes, there are inconsiderate cyclists on the bike trails. But before ebikes, they were essentially self regulating because people could only ride so fast for a given period of time. Motorized bicycles change all that. Should speed rules be more effectively enforced? Sure, but does anyone really think that will happen?

3. I don't think its smug to acknowledge that motorizing a bike changes the very essence of what a bike is. It makes it more of a motorcycle with sophisticated throttling than a bicycle. Adding gears to a human powered bicycle doesn't change the essence of what it is any more than adding gears to a motorcycle or car changes the essence of what they are.

All that being said, I see the advantages in ebikes. They will get more people riding than otherwise would, and more people riding is a good thing. More people riding is better than people sitting on the couch, and more people riding means more people who will start to understand what it is like to share the road with autos. It also means fewer people driving.

My only objection to others riding them is that they can and are being modified for speeds inappropriate with bike paths and trails. Other than that, have at it. Choice is a good thing.

A neighbor of mine ... my age and in reasonably good shape, just bought an ebike for himself and his wife. He and his wife took a ride recently, and his comment summarizes what is right and what is wrong with ebikes:

"We went for a ride around the peninsula, and we weren't even tired when we got back!"

What's great is that he went for a ride. What's not so great is that he is missing a lot of what cycling is about ... setting a personal goal and working to achieve it. And getting stronger with every attempt. It is what hooks a lot of us on the sport. For some of us, at least ... it is not about minimizing effort.

Ever take the Myers-Briggs personality test? This version of it (https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test) asks whether you agree or disagree with this statement:

"In a discussion, truth should be more important than people’s sensitivities."

I think what is going on here is that there are some that want to call and apple an orange because they are both fruit. Some are willing to do so in the interest of being inclusive, and some are not ... even if they like both apples and oranges.
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Old 12-29-17, 11:01 AM   #127
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Some folks won't get it no matter how clearly it is stated.
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Old 12-29-17, 12:05 PM   #128
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What about the much older cyclist. Someone that has enjoyed cycling all their lives. There may come a time that a little electric assist is wanted or needed. That way they can continue to enjoy cycling.
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Old 12-29-17, 12:06 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
A few things.

1. Most ebikers I see are 20 somethings, and do not appear disabled in any way. Some of them roll by with surfboards on their bikes. I don't think anyone here begrudges a motorized bike for someone who truly needs it.

2. Yes, there are inconsiderate cyclists on the bike trails. But before ebikes, they were essentially self regulating because people could only ride so fast for a given period of time. Motorized bicycles change all that. Should speed rules be more effectively enforced? Sure, but does anyone really think that will happen?

3. I don't think its smug to acknowledge that motorizing a bike changes the very essence of what a bike is. It makes it more of a motorcycle with sophisticated throttling than a bicycle. Adding gears to a human powered bicycle doesn't change the essence of what it is any more than adding gears to a motorcycle or car changes the essence of what they are.

All that being said, I see the advantages in ebikes. They will get more people riding than otherwise would, and more people riding is a good thing. More people riding is better than people sitting on the couch, and more people riding means more people who will start to understand what it is like to share the road with autos. It also means fewer people driving.

My only objection to others riding them is that they can and are being modified for speeds inappropriate with bike paths and trails. Other than that, have at it. Choice is a good thing.

A neighbor of mine ... my age and in reasonably good shape, just bought an ebike for himself and his wife. He and his wife took a ride recently, and his comment summarizes what is right and what is wrong with ebikes:

"We went for a ride around the peninsula, and we weren't even tired when we got back!"

What's great is that he went for a ride. What's not so great is that he is missing a lot of what cycling is about ... setting a personal goal and working to achieve it. And getting stronger with every attempt. It is what hooks a lot of us on the sport. For some of us, at least ... it is not about minimizing effort.

Ever take the Myers-Briggs personality test? This version of it (https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test) asks whether you agree or disagree with this statement:

"In a discussion, truth should be more important than people’s sensitivities."

I think what is going on here is that there are some that want to call and apple an orange because they are both fruit. Some are willing to do so in the interest of being inclusive, and some are not ... even if they like both apples and oranges.

I am in agreement with a lot you say other than a couple of points.

An e-bike does not change the very essence of what a bike is, imo. It just gives an additional option. The essence is still two (or three) wheels powered by the rider and that will not change.

I don't begrudge an e-bike to anyone who wants, not just needs, one.

Perhaps we have different experience of e-bikes here in the UK, as there does not seem to be much of a problem with souped-up e-bikes.

Myers-briggs takes me back 25 years when I used to use the questionnaires as an aid to recruitment and team-building. My issue is that we are not necessarily talking about the truth here, we are talking about opinions, which can differ. I do not want to call an apple an orange, just a fruit. I will continue to ride bikes, but possibly one day, in the hopefully distant future, of the e variety.

I actually hired an e-mtb last year for a half day in Lake Garda, Italy, and loved it, but I do not have one on my wish list.
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Old 12-29-17, 01:44 PM   #130
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I am in agreement with a lot you say other than a couple of points.

An e-bike does not change the very essence of what a bike is, imo. It just gives an additional option. The essence is still two (or three) wheels powered by the rider and that will not change.

That maybe in the EU, but here in N America people have pushed the envelope with the E-Bike laws and 750 watt with a throttle is NOT the same as 350 watts and no throttle...

I don't begrudge an e-bike to anyone who wants, not just needs, one.

Perhaps we have different experience of e-bikes here in the UK, as there does not seem to be much of a problem with souped-up e-bikes.

Well most people seem to be buying E-Bikes here for a faster ride, using a throttle, not just for some assistance while pedaling...

Myers-briggs takes me back 25 years when I used to use the questionnaires as an aid to recruitment and team-building. My issue is that we are not necessarily talking about the truth here, we are talking about opinions, which can differ. I do not want to call an apple an orange, just a fruit. I will continue to ride bikes, but possibly one day, in the hopefully distant future, of the e variety.

I actually hired an e-mtb last year for a half day in Lake Garda, Italy, and loved it, but I do not have one on my wish list.
That is the difference as I see it between the EU law meant to get more riders onto bicycles and still keeping them bicycles, compared to the N American law meant to sell more E-Bikes disguised as bicycles...
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Old 12-29-17, 03:14 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Gerryattrick View Post
I am in agreement with a lot you say other than a couple of points.

An e-bike does not change the very essence of what a bike is, imo. It just gives an additional option. The essence is still two (or three) wheels powered by the rider and that will not change.

I don't begrudge an e-bike to anyone who wants, not just needs, one.

Perhaps we have different experience of e-bikes here in the UK, as there does not seem to be much of a problem with souped-up e-bikes.

Myers-briggs takes me back 25 years when I used to use the questionnaires as an aid to recruitment and team-building. My issue is that we are not necessarily talking about the truth here, we are talking about opinions, which can differ. I do not want to call an apple an orange, just a fruit. I will continue to ride bikes, but possibly one day, in the hopefully distant future, of the e variety.

I actually hired an e-mtb last year for a half day in Lake Garda, Italy, and loved it, but I do not have one on my wish list.
I actually think we are very close to being in agreement.

The genius (or deviltry) of the ebike is the notion of providing variable assist, and to me, the extent to which they change the essence of a bicycle depends on the level of assist. On the one hand, there are those (who have posted here) who would use a light assist on hills to ease the pressure on their knees. On the other hand, there are those who use maximum assist to go as fast as possible all the time. At that point, to me, at least, it is a fundamental change in the essence of a bicycle, as the pedaling is only soft-pedaling side show. I think it is in the nature of humans to go as fast as the machine allows them in reasonable comfort, which is why I have seen much more of the latter than the former.

But even if we don't agree there, we can certainly disagree as to whether the addition of a motor changes the essence of what a bicycle is and what bicycling is about. That is probably the root of the disagreement, and that is OK, as cycling means different things to different people.

As for me, I'll stick with non-motorized bicycles, and if that means going slower as I age, I'm OK with that. If and when it gets to the point where I'm going so slow as to hold even the slowest of the group up, maybe I'll dive into motorized bike land.
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Old 12-29-17, 03:54 PM   #132
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How about an e-bike trike? Does it extend that far?
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Old 12-29-17, 06:35 PM   #133
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I actually think we are very close to being in agreement.

The genius (or deviltry) of the ebike is the notion of providing variable assist, and to me, the extent to which they change the essence of a bicycle depends on the level of assist. On the one hand, there are those (who have posted here) who would use a light assist on hills to ease the pressure on their knees. On the other hand, there are those who use maximum assist to go as fast as possible all the time. At that point, to me, at least, it is a fundamental change in the essence of a bicycle, as the pedaling is only soft-pedaling side show. I think it is in the nature of humans to go as fast as the machine allows them in reasonable comfort, which is why I have seen much more of the latter than the former.

But even if we don't agree there, we can certainly disagree as to whether the addition of a motor changes the essence of what a bicycle is and what bicycling is about. That is probably the root of the disagreement, and that is OK, as cycling means different things to different people.

As for me, I'll stick with non-motorized bicycles, and if that means going slower as I age, I'm OK with that. If and when it gets to the point where I'm going so slow as to hold even the slowest of the group up, maybe I'll dive into motorized bike land.
Levels of assist is one thing, but levels of power available in another... You just can't even compare the highest output of a 350 watt motor to a 750 watt motor, and... That will be the ultimate fail leading to moped status with the combination of the throttle and the ability to go 28MPh without pedaling, putting the last nail in the "assist" E-Bike being considered legally like a regular bicycle in the future, as it really should be, as you still actually need to pedal them to go anywhere... IMO

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Old 12-29-17, 08:55 PM   #134
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While I don't have any current interest in getting anything with e-assist, I don't look down on anybody who does - as long as they understand that the motor puts them in a different racing class even more so than my bikes put me in a different racing class.
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Old 12-31-17, 11:45 AM   #135
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Wait and see how you feel when you hit 67 - UGH.... But I just think about Robert Marchand - the guy just set a new world record by cycling more than 14 miles round a track in an hour - at the age of 105.
Robert Marchand set the first hour record in the over-100s category in 2012, then beat it himself two years later at the age of 102, when he covered more than 16 miles. While his distance in last ride was not as great as those two, the new over-105's category had been specially created for him to reflect the magnitude of his feat.
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Old 12-31-17, 12:36 PM   #136
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This type of attitude is part and parcel of the problem.

Telling others when change is right for them based on your own life isn't right, nor is buying an e-bike somehow being a quitter.

If that's what the guy wants to do, or feels he needs to do, then it is up to him. Nobody said anything about walkers or rocking chairs. Walkers and rocking chairs are not e-bikes.

I met a 103 year old Trappist monk who used a walker. No one ever accused him of "throwing in the towel."


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There is such a thing as "throwing in the towel mentally" which increases the older you get. There are many who will say "you should be a bit easier on yourself at your age . . . " with the best of intentions. Because your mind will always gravitate towards the softer option. I've had all that from my lot. But I know that to stagnate at my age is to curl up and die.
If you feel things are slowing up and becoming harder, best to check out your health and take it from there..
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Old 12-31-17, 06:29 PM   #137
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There is such a thing as "throwing in the towel mentally" which increases the older you get. There are many who will say "you should be a bit easier on yourself at your age . . . " with the best of intentions. Because your mind will always gravitate towards the softer option. I've had all that from my lot. But I know that to stagnate at my age is to curl up and die.
If you feel things are slowing up and becoming harder, best to check out your health and take it from there..
There you go,... the instant one decides to use a cane, what does that mean...? Well, it could mean you are decrepit, and you might as give up and, well just die,... or, it could mean you are overcoming life's downward slide and you just keep on doing what you want to do when you start to use one...

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Old 01-01-18, 07:20 AM   #138
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This has been an interesting thread. It looks to me like it started out as a discussion of changes in hardware - specifically electric powered bikes, and has morphed into a discussion of physical changes in riders as we age.

Some folks see e-assisted bikes as a means of allowing folks who feel otherwise unable to continue to ride or even to use an assisted bike rather than a car for short errands. That's my primary thought too. I see it as expanding the market - a good thing.

Others see e-assisted bikes as either a means of cheating in a competitive setting of some kind or as "giving up" on a self sufficient exercise program. I understand that thought too. As I read the thread I thought to myself that e-bikes are certainly OK for some other people but I'm not ready for one - yet.

This being a bicycling site, I'd expect our posters to be skewed more toward the second opinion than in the population as a whole. I'm thinking that e-bikes are here to stay and that we are likely to see increased use especially as commuters and errand bikes. If that turns out to be true, I think that there will have to be changes in infrastructure and the in law to keep up.
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Old 01-01-18, 07:55 AM   #139
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Some folks see e-assisted bikes as a means of allowing folks who feel otherwise unable to continue to ride or even to use an assisted bike rather than a car for short errands.

Others see e-assisted bikes as either a means of cheating in a competitive setting of some kind or as "giving up" on a self sufficient exercise program.
Mostly the folks who haven't yet reached the age or physical situation in which their cycling activities are severely impacted.
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I'm thinking that e-bikes are here to stay and that we are likely to see increased use especially as commuters and errand bikes. If that turns out to be true, I think that there will have to be changes in infrastructure and the in law to keep up.
This is sort of the best outcome.

People who cycle for their egos (in part) hate e-bikes because people who see them blasting by on their bikes won't be as impressed, I guess. Oh, well.

The upside is more bikes on the road, and more in places where people have in the past not been able to ride---for instance, being a bike messenger takes a ton of commitment and fitness, but with an e-bike, zipping around a city to do deliveries might be more cost-effective (and cleaner) than using cars and a lot more doable for average folks. This means more bike son the road, which means drivers get used to seeing bikes, which means all cyclists have a better chance of surviving.

As to speed, recklessness, etc .... I think those arguments are either fear-based or mask other objections. The same people who would ride e-bikes would ride bikes, mopeds, motorcycles, or drive cars, with the same habits and attitudes.

Possible the folks who try e-bike snow are either older and slower and not a problem, or maybe a little more adventurous (trying something new) and a little less bounded by social norms (look at the flak e-bikers take here.) So, maybe they are even pre-selected as somewhat reckless, defiant, independent.

Europe somehow managed to develop nicely despite millions of kids on mopeds. Possibly the U.S. could also?
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Old 01-01-18, 08:46 AM   #140
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I think that if you need a motor on your bike to make it move, you should wear a vest that says either DISABLED or LAZY.
...
Any one who rides one is just lazy and I get very worked up when some folks try to convince others that it is just part of getting old.
Ironic that your avatar touts 'not being harassed by the Man', which to me is a 'live and let live' philosophy, yet you want to put a scarlet "Lazy" sign on those who feel differently than you do...
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Old 01-01-18, 09:50 AM   #141
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Ironic that your avatar touts 'not being harassed by the Man', which to me is a 'live and let live' philosophy, yet you want to put a scarlet "Lazy" sign on those who feel differently than you do...
SCARLET is a good idea. Feel any way you want. Just keep your motorbike off the bike paths and out of the bike lanes.
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Old 01-01-18, 10:19 AM   #142
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I don't look down on the idea of e-bikes. I do think it is a bit of a change in the essential nature of the activity and it's a change I'm not ready for at this point. There certainly may come a time when I am and I have no problem with that.

But the other day I was in the supermarket and there was a tall, thin young guy in front of me wearing full kit that featured '3 feet ... it's the law' in bright yellow letters on the back of the jersey. He looked like sort of guy who goes whizzing past me leaving only the whirring sound of carbon wheels in his wake. I have to admit I was just a little disappointed when I walked outside and saw him getting on his e-bike.
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Old 01-01-18, 01:10 PM   #143
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What about internal combustion motor assist? For a time a popular thing was to put a small motor on a bike. Matter of fact one came putting by here just before snow fall.

Designated primary power was still human pedaling. But, rarely did you see pedaling except up hills where both were needed.

Seems to me "e-assist" is just a marketing term to get small electric motorcycles into people's hands.

Me? I have no problem at all with them. After all one might be handy sometime in the future. But, let's call them what they are, electric/hybrid motorcycles. Then figure out how to let them safely operate.
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Old 01-01-18, 07:50 PM   #144
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People who cycle for their egos (in part) hate e-bikes because people who see them blasting by on their bikes won't be as impressed, I guess. Oh, well.
I really wish you would stop referring to people who regard ebikes as a pandora's box as "haters."

It's nonsense, insulting, and it doesn't advance the discussion.
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Old 01-01-18, 08:54 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
What about internal combustion motor assist? For a time a popular thing was to put a small motor on a bike. Matter of fact one came putting by here just before snow fall.

Designated primary power was still human pedaling. But, rarely did you see pedaling except up hills where both were needed.

Seems to me "e-assist" is just a marketing term to get small electric motorcycles into people's hands.

Me? I have no problem at all with them. After all one might be handy sometime in the future. But, let's call them what they are, electric/hybrid motorcycles. Then figure out how to let them safely operate.
No, actually there IS, such a thing as an E-Assist... A TOTALY different animal from an E-Bike...
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Old 01-01-18, 08:55 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
I really wish you would stop referring to people who regard ebikes as a pandora's box as "haters."

It's nonsense, insulting, and it doesn't advance the discussion.
Yes and I could with equal honesty wish that people didn't refer to e-bikes
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as a pandora's box
because
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It's nonsense, insulting, and it doesn't advance the discussion.
I guess we will both have to toughen up and carry on.
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Old 01-02-18, 01:48 AM   #147
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Funny thing ... when I first read the title of this thread way back when "Embracing Changes", I thought it might possibly be about going back to university or college to upgrade technological education in order to stay with the times, or get a promotion at work, or something.

Then I thought it might be about deciding to pack up and move to another country to pursue an intriguing opportunity in a new field, or maybe deciding to travel around the world for a year, or something else exciting.



Imagine my disappointment when I saw it was about ... e-bikes.
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Old 01-02-18, 09:56 AM   #148
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Apparently Machka forgot she was reading Bike Forums.
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Old 01-02-18, 12:36 PM   #149
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I'm sure anyone who has done any of those things in Machka's post could start a thread about it.
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Old 01-02-18, 01:43 PM   #150
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I didn't entirely read the OP's post as "throwing in the towel" and I didn't say anything about the idea that buying an e-bike is somehow being a quitter, I was actually reading your post as "throwing in the towel". And your post reminded me of others I've encountered who have hit 50 and figure that they're ready for the walker and rocking chair life.
I read this and feel compelled to respond.

The implication that a walker and a rocking chair are essentially the same is incorrect and creates a psychological hazard for those who need the right tools to exercise safely. A rocking chair is an object designed for passive relaxation. A walker is an exercise tool as much as is a bike. It is designed to help ensure that those who need one, can exercise safely.

My mother for far too long resisted using a cane or a walker for fear they would make her look 'old'. What was making her age, wasn't these devices, but the falls she endured from venturing without them. It's like refusing to wear corrective lenses because of one's vanity. Don't, just don't go there.

For heaven's sake, don't look down on walkers. My sister is far from elderly but is recovering from a fall sustained in exercise class when she broke her hip. She says the walker is great - it makes a 'cage' around her as she works on strengthening the soft tissues that got damaged when the bone broke (it is imperative for the time being that she not jerk her artificial hip in a sudden, lateral move.) She like me is an enthusiastic if slow, low mileage cyclist (also like me) and if she is to be back in the saddle by spring, that walker must be seen as the friend that it is.
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