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Old 12-30-17, 07:39 PM   #1
mdadams1
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Exercise and sleep

Even if I exercise in the morning, the harder I exercise the more i lay awake that night and get very little sleep. Even in high school, after a wrestling match I would have a very difficult time sleeping. The only times I remember sleeping well was when I was injured and could not exercise. So the less I exercise it seems the better I sleep. I have tried so many things to get a good night sleep. From prescribed pills to herbal supplements. None seem very effective. For me if I can get 5 hrs sleep I have had a good night's sleep. Anyone else?
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Old 12-30-17, 08:35 PM   #2
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You might want to see your physician again and request a referral for a sleep study.
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Old 12-30-17, 08:41 PM   #3
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Since Iíve retired 6 hours seems to be good for me. While I was working it was a lot more. Maybe Iím just more excited about the day ahead????

I do grab a good nap every now so maybe thatís the difference.
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Old 12-30-17, 09:03 PM   #4
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The more I exercise, the deeper and more quickly I sleep.

And timing doesn't matter.

When I lived on my own, I'd often cycle until 9 or 10 pm, then do a bit of yoga and/or weightlifting, catch up on some housework, then relax for about an hour, and I'd be into a deep sleep about 2 seconds after my head hit the pillow.

Now I don't exercise quite that late, but even so, one sure way to get a great night's sleep is to go for a decent bicycle ride or run at some point during the day.

I've even fallen asleep before my head hit the pillow if I've put in a large amount of exercise. I know there have been times when I remember sitting on the edge of the bed ... and 13 hours later, I wake up lying in bed, covered in my blankets. But I don't actually remember lying down.


And if I don't exercise much at all for a couple days, I'll have a restless night.


I second the suggestion about going for a sleep study ... at least do some reading about circadian rhythm
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Old 12-30-17, 09:24 PM   #5
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Sometimes I would watch ~1hr documentaries on youtube until my eyes get really heavy.

Othertimes, I would listen to podcasts as I turn off the lights and lay in bed. That would usually take twenty minutes to fall asleep and I would never get to listen to the end.
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Old 12-31-17, 01:08 AM   #6
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I'm also sleeping challenged. Exercise doesn't necessarily prevent me from sleeping, but after a hard day's exercise my body can run "hot" and that interferes.

After a certain age, I found I needed a truly dark room to get a good nights sleep. We bought opaque window shades and that helped a ton. If a dark room may not be available (traveling), I bring a blindfold. When my daughter was still living at home as a teenager and she would sleep until 2 PM with the sunshine streaming in through her windows, I would marvel - remembering that I did that when I was young. But no more.

The best sleep supplement I have found is melatonin. I depend on it with some frequency.
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Old 12-31-17, 07:05 AM   #7
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No difference whether I exercise or not. I'm asleep within a couple of minutes of my head hitting the pillow and don't wake up for at least eight hours in the winter and around six/seven hours in summer.

Although I am getting on a bit now I never nap during the day.
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Old 12-31-17, 07:38 AM   #8
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No difference whether I exercise or not. I'm asleep within a couple of minutes of my head hitting the pillow and don't wake up for at least eight hours in the winter and around six/seven hours in summer.

Although I am getting on a bit now I never nap during the day.
envious.
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Old 12-31-17, 03:00 PM   #9
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I am weird I wake up every hour or two and roll over move. I always go back to sleep but never have I hit the pillow and sleep for hours straight like 5-8. I go to sleep fast but wake up many time during the night. I am early riser usually by 4am or 4:30. Exercise if I go hard does not tend to help with sleep as such and sometime can make it worse if you overdo it.

Then of course there is this bathroom issue of having to go at least 2 times at night. Some guys hit the 50's with gray hair and even going bald, but somehow I get the BPH and probably looking at getting the plumbing reworked so things go better and not so often. I need start at thread like that in this forum to see if anyone has done that but probably is not bike specific.

So exercise can help but too much can hurt.
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Old 12-31-17, 04:46 PM   #10
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Not unusual to sleep less as we age and also not unusual to sleep more. There is no norm actually but a restive sleep is an uninterrupted one. In other words getting up frequently is bad. To the OP, my armchair diagnosis is anxiety. Having a goal even just a workout goal can bring on this problem. I have this very issue as well. Diagnosis for me was anxiety. Get a physician to check you out. There are myriad ways to deal with it sans drugs. @deacon mark, I have that problem as well.:-(
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Old 12-31-17, 06:21 PM   #11
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I am weird I wake up every hour or two and roll over move. I always go back to sleep but never have I hit the pillow and sleep for hours straight like 5-8. I go to sleep fast but wake up many time during the night. I am early riser usually by 4am or 4:30. Exercise if I go hard does not tend to help with sleep as such and sometime can make it worse if you overdo it.

Then of course there is this bathroom issue of having to go at least 2 times at night. Some guys hit the 50's with gray hair and even going bald, but somehow I get the BPH and probably looking at getting the plumbing reworked so things go better and not so often. I need start at thread like that in this forum to see if anyone has done that but probably is not bike specific.

So exercise can help but too much can hurt.
Try some good saw palmetto extract and lay off any liquids after about 7:00 pm. Helped me. Sometimes I make it til 5 AM! Woohoo!
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Old 12-31-17, 06:31 PM   #12
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Have you tried meditating before you go to bed? Cheap, easy and I find it works really well.

Ben

Last edited by 79pmooney; 04-02-18 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 12-31-17, 08:58 PM   #13
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I find different exercise affect me differently. Not all exercise are equal.

If i cycle long distances or go on the indoor trainer (wahoo Kickr) i will get tired and sleepy in about 2-3 hours time so I've been quite successful with that plan on a sunday evening.

Working with weights doesn't make me tired for bed though - in fact i'm quite amped up.
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Old 12-31-17, 09:18 PM   #14
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warm milk?
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Old 01-01-18, 01:21 AM   #15
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Same here. Exercise revs me up. If I ride at night I won't be able to sleep for several hours. Unfortunately I enjoy riding at night.

If I need to be up early I have to skip drinking any alcohol. It's like caffeine to me. That's not unusual. Alcohol interferes with sleeping for a lot of folks, even when it also makes them drowsy. For me it usually doesn't even make me drowsy. It's more like a caffeine jolt with a little buzz. Fortunately I don't need to be anywhere Monday so I had a couple of glasses of wine with dinner.

And if I needed to work early, I'd have to change my exercise schedule to mornings or afternoons.

Melatonin works well to help me sleep. I usually take 5-10 mg; any less does little or nothing for me. The body produces it normally, but as we get older we don't produce it effectively. The melatonin supplement does no harm for most folks but should be taken a couple of hours before the usual bedtime. It takes awhile to kick in, although some fast acting melatonin supplements can kick in within 15-30 minutes. There are also time release versions, combining fast release and gradual overnight release.

Valerian root works for some folks too. Theories differ about how it works but one theory is that it affects the serotonin and dopamine similarly to certain medications like valproic acid, which is effective for a wide range of symptoms ranging from seizures to migraines to bipolar disorder and may even help alcoholics and drug addicts to cope with sobriety.

The only problem with valerian root is it smells funky -- like old gym socks. If you've watched or read Murder on the Orient Express you might remember the murdered man, Samuel Ratchett, drank a tea of valerian root to help him sleep. While I've heard of it used as a tea it's so foul smelling I've never been tempted. I usually buy it in gelatin capsules and hold my breath while swallowing them.

The effect for me is very mild, much milder than 5-10mg melatonin. A couple of 400-500mg valerian root capsules affect me pretty comparably to 1 mg of melatonin. It can also cause very slight stomach burning so I'll usually take a Tums or similar antacid with it.

And I have some favorite bedtime music playlists. Lots of ambient instrumentals and dream pop -- Mazzy Star and singer Hope Sandoval, Cat Power, Julee Cruise, that sorta thing. Sometimes I'll listen to podcasts and old radio shows from the archives.
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Old 01-01-18, 08:29 AM   #16
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Then of course there is this bathroom issue of having to go at least 2 times at night. Some guys hit the 50's with gray hair and even going bald, but somehow I get the BPH and probably looking at getting the plumbing reworked so things go better and not so often. I need start at thread like that in this forum to see if anyone has done that but probably is not bike specific.
Have you tried the medication route for BPH? I was dubious, but it works really well for me. It's no cure; if it works it must be taken for as long as you want the benefits, but thou I dislike medications I prefer to delay any surgical options as long as possible.
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Old 01-01-18, 08:54 AM   #17
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I haven't done much jogging for quite some time, but when I was younger, I had noticed that jogging would just knock me out.

Recently, I'm often found doing bike errands during the evening, and am often out cold within an hour or so after getting home. Rides vary, but a typical cycle shopping trip will be 20 to 40 miles RT.
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Old 01-01-18, 09:45 AM   #18
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Have you tried the medication route for BPH? I was dubious, but it works really well for me. It's no cure; if it works it must be taken for as long as you want the benefits, but thou I dislike medications I prefer to delay any surgical options as long as possible.
Oh I have been taking Tamsulosin for past 2 1/2 years and it helps.
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Old 01-01-18, 12:07 PM   #19
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There is much written about the benefits of a cold shower as a great way to start the day--e.g.,

https://www.bikeforums.net/general-c...-work-etc.html

Conversely, it is believed that a warm shower before going to bed can kick start your body's 24 hour clock and help you get some sleep.
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Old 01-02-18, 04:37 AM   #20
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I am retired and living 100% on my circadian rhythm. There is still not enough time left in the day to do all the things on my to-do list and by the time I go to sleep I am too tired to meditate or do anything else. If I ride Zwift in the evenings it helps me even more. It wasn't always that way as I worked all kinds of odd hours over the years.

All I can say is: Stay on your feet all day, take those shoes off, put the feet up and if you go "ahhhhh", you'll be asleep within minutes.
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Old 03-06-18, 06:29 AM   #21
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I've had sleep problems my entire life. Usual OTC sleep aids with Diphenhydramine might work for a day or two but then they actually keep me awake and/or sap my energy the next day. A year ago I started using some with Doxylamine and that actually works good, but I have to take like three of them. But I have to sleep so I take it.

I got some prescribed 25g Promethazine for nausea. I took one of those and I was out like a light. I started using half of one at bedtime and was sleeping for 8 hours straight with no hangover effect. Best stuff ever. I looked it up and the Sominex that is sold in the UK uses Promethazine. In the USA Sominex uses Diphenhydramine. It's too bad I can't get Promethazine over the counter here.
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Old 03-06-18, 07:03 AM   #22
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I'm not close to over fifty, is it ever ok for me to post here?

Either way sleeping is something I've thought alot about. I worked an overnight shift for awhile, and like the OP sometimes have problems sleeping if I'm not somewhat conscious of what does and doesn't help.

I can't exercise or have activity about three hours before bed, and try to have no "screen time" an hour before. No TV, no phone.

No sugar or caffeine a few hours before sleeping.

If I'm feeling restless when I'm about to lay down I'll take some ibuprofen. Helps decrease inflammation, and aches that might agitate me.

Melatonin works but larger doses leave me groggy in the morning, and while not supposedly habit forming I've noticed it's hard to sleep without it for a few days, when I used it for a few days. Others have mentioned as you age the body produces less so my experience may not be applicable.

Getting the house temperature down is a must before bed, mid 60s if I feel restless.

Someone mentioned a sleep study, great idea. My wife had one because she snored terribly and I noticed she would momentarily stop breathing. Now that she has a CPAP machine her energy, mood, and thinking is greatly improved. She's never felt better in her whole life till she started using the machine.

I've noticed for me sleep deprivation is a vicious circle - the more deprived I get the harder it is to sleep. I figure it's some survival mechanism.

https://www.polyphasicsociety.com/po...eep/overviews/

I tried looking up the article I first read about polyphasic sleep from a former military man in some men's journal, but couldn't find it. To me breaking up your sleep in the middle of the night makes sense if your Circadian rhythms are like that.
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Old 03-06-18, 08:05 AM   #23
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warm milk?
Ovaltine?
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Old 03-06-18, 09:45 AM   #24
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I've had sleep problems my entire life. Usual OTC sleep aids with Diphenhydramine might work for a day or two but then they actually keep me awake and/or sap my energy the next day. A year ago I started using some with Doxylamine and that actually works good, but I have to take like three of them. But I have to sleep so I take it.

I got some prescribed 25g Promethazine for nausea. I took one of those and I was out like a light. I started using half of one at bedtime and was sleeping for 8 hours straight with no hangover effect. Best stuff ever. I looked it up and the Sominex that is sold in the UK uses Promethazine. In the USA Sominex uses Diphenhydramine. It's too bad I can't get Promethazine over the counter here.
Please be very careful with those. I'll try to summarize my usual 3,000 word diatribe against using these types of medications too often. But I've personally witnessed the devastating effects on my own family so I have a personal stake in this information.

These are all powerful anti-cholinergics. While this type of drug can serve a legitimate medical function it should be used only under medical supervision and never as sleep aids. These can hasten the onset of dementia and worsen the effects. The transition from responding normally to over-reacting to a single dose can occur unexpectedly. The older we get, the more dangerous the potential reactions.

For example, my mom ended up in the emergency room in 2012 after a single dose of a generic version of Nyquil. She had purchased this on her own at the local discount store, despite cautions from her geriatric general practitioner to take only the approved meds for allergies, congestion and coughing (mom's GP was fantastic and very well informed about potential side effects, better than some of mom's specialists). I usually scrutinized everything mom brought home from the store but I missed that one.

Those nighttime cough/cold/flu remedies are the worst kind of junk and should be labeled as poison rather than medicine. They contain at least three anti-cholinergics, all from the worst and lowest class of antihistamines and medications that should have been taken off the market years ago.

The combination created a potent hallucinatory effect on my mom. She never fully recovered. While she had days and sometimes weeks of relative clarity and independence, she began reacting more strongly and immediately to side effects from other medications. The worst was from a single dose of a medication prescribed by an ill-informed neurologist who, thankfully, is no longer with her health care system working with geriatric patients. The neurologist suggested the medication -- designed for patients with serious Parkinson's, which my mom did not have -- to control her minor but annoying essential tremor in one hand, which was inappropriate. She again hallucinated, this time for three days. The experience rapidly hastened her deterioration and should could no longer enjoy the independence she once had.

It was a frustrating experience for her and her visiting aides as well. Eventually we couldn't keep a visiting aide. I took over full time caregiver duties in early 2015. She's now in a nursing home full time. Doctors can find nothing organically wrong with her brain. She's had only a few minor TIAs -- mini-strokes -- not serious enough to account for the level of dementia. But I could recount for the specialists an incident-by-incident list of medications that precipitated her worsening dementia over the course of a decade.

And it began with careless use of OTC anti-cholinergics, including diphenhydramine, doxylamine succinate, chlorpheneramine, phenylephrine and others. And the prescription medication benztropine/benzatropine, often marketed as Cogentin.

To a lesser extent my grandmother had a similar experience. She insisted on routinely taking diphenhydramine and Unisom with doxylamine succinate as sleep aids. The effect on her was much more gradual. She simply slowed down very gradually, sleeping more, becoming less active, taking longer to finish the daily crossword puzzle, then not finishing it at all. She became unable to cope with routine bill paying, etc. I simply thought it was a routine process of aging.

She had surgery for a lower intestine biopsy at age 89 and never recovered. She hallucinated from the combination of anesthesia and morphine for pain and never fully recovered mentally or physically. She was unable to cooperate with basic physical therapy, was unfortunately neglected by nurses in an incompetent physical rehab center, and died a few months later in-home hospice.

While the effects were less severe than with my mom, I can't help wondering whether grandmother would have been better off using melatonin, valerian root or chamomile tea.

Frankly I'd rather lose some sleep than risk taking anti-cholinergics. Occasionally I'll take melatonin, and find I need less of it as I've gotten older.
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Old 03-06-18, 10:53 AM   #25
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I am retired and living 100% on my circadian rhythm. There is still not enough time left in the day to do all the things on my to-do list and by the time I go to sleep I am too tired to meditate or do anything else. If I ride Zwift in the evenings it helps me even more. It wasn't always that way as I worked all kinds of odd hours over the years.

All I can say is: Stay on your feet all day, take those shoes off, put the feet up and if you go "ahhhhh", you'll be asleep within minutes.
That's me too.

Having problems sleeping must really suck.

There is so much to do and see in the world, I have the unhealthy habit of fighting sleep. So all I have to do is recline by 45 degrees or more, and it's lights out. Hell ... I fell asleep at my desk yesterday, sitting bolt upright.

The few times I DO have trouble sleeping, I just take advantage of it to watch some mindless TV or if I'm really desperate, pull out some old boring textbooks. That usually does the trick.
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