Clipless shoes/pedals with foot alignment
08-10-13 | 12:39 PM
#26
Trek 500 Kid
Joined: Feb 2013
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From: Spokane WA
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
People are still confusing alignment and float ...
Alignment : cleats are adjustable fore and aft, laterally and radially. Further adjustment can be effected with cleat wedges and spacers.
A competent bike fitter will measure and optimise all those planes to set the most comfortable/efficient attitude for your foot/knees/hips.
Once this position is set float is the angular displacement by which the cleat must be rotated/twisted before disengagement. The cleat will naturally locate your foot on the mid-position - set by the alignment - when pedalling normally. If you're pedalling with your foot constantly straying into the float zone then your cleat alignment is wrong.
The degree of float does not necessarily contribute to the degree of comfort/security you may experience.
Alignment is everything. A bike fit should start from those fixed points.
Alignment : cleats are adjustable fore and aft, laterally and radially. Further adjustment can be effected with cleat wedges and spacers.
A competent bike fitter will measure and optimise all those planes to set the most comfortable/efficient attitude for your foot/knees/hips.
Once this position is set float is the angular displacement by which the cleat must be rotated/twisted before disengagement. The cleat will naturally locate your foot on the mid-position - set by the alignment - when pedalling normally. If you're pedalling with your foot constantly straying into the float zone then your cleat alignment is wrong.
The degree of float does not necessarily contribute to the degree of comfort/security you may experience.
Alignment is everything. A bike fit should start from those fixed points.
If I ever go to clipless I'd better get fitted at a better LBS before investing.
08-10-13 | 01:02 PM
#27
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From: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Another option might be "pedal extenders" It's a thread-in spacer that fits between your pedal and the crankarm. Hostel Shoppe has them in sizes from 20mm to 30mm.
08-10-13 | 01:12 PM
#28
Trek 500 Kid
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From: Spokane WA
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Yeah I already use an extender myself, on the right side with caged quill pedals. Saves my shoe heel from rubbing a hole in the side among other things.
With clipless you still need to have the cleats adjusted right.
With clipless you still need to have the cleats adjusted right.
Last edited by Zinger; 08-10-13 at 01:15 PM.
08-10-13 | 05:33 PM
#29
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From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
So...the pedals themselves are fixed when they are manufactured. I understand float describe a few posts back but alignment eludes me. Fore/aft..fine lateral/radial? Question can the cleats be adjusted so that when clipped into place the shoe can point some number of degrees clockwise or anticlockwise when looking down at them? Thus the float would be judged from that 'clipped' position.
Thanks, Rich
Thanks, Rich
08-10-13 | 05:36 PM
#30
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From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
08-10-13 | 06:22 PM
#31
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From: Annandale, VA
Bikes: Fuji Rubaix 1.0
Well I took the advice I found here and went to a place which sells Specialized shoes. The rep there went through in exhausting detail all the options. He took out a pedal, clip and shoe to showed exactly how it works. I tried the Bontrager and they didn't have sufficient room in the toe box. Specialized did the trick, fit like a glove. Because of the large difference in length of my two feet I needed a 45.5 and that had to come only in their highest model. I bought the Spec Comp Men's MTB and the Shimano PD 324. I set the tension to loosest and will work on the alignment and practice getting out on my trainer. I'll tighten them as my experience grows and circumstances change.
Rich
Rich
Last edited by Rich Gibson; 08-11-13 at 05:35 AM.
08-10-13 | 06:29 PM
#32
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Well I took the advice I found here and went to a place which sells Specialized shoes. The rep there went through in exhausting detail all the options. He took out a pedal, clip and shoe to showed exactly how it works. I tried the Bontrager and they didn't have sufficient room in the toe box. Specialized did the trick, fit like a glove. Because of the large difference in length of my two feet I needed a 45.5 and that had to come only in their highest model. I bought the Special Competition Men's MTB and the Shimano PD6430. I like the idea of being able to pop on the MTB side of the pedal at road crossings and get back on the trail to clip in. Now for setting the attachment point and tension. I set it to the loosest setting and will gradually tighten them as my experience and practice warrants. Thanks for all the help everyone! 
Rich
Rich
One other thing to keep in mind. Feet swell when they get warm, and folks often tie/cinch/whatever their BIKE shoes too tight resulting in pain. A number of folks have had shoe pain ended by loosening their shoe a bit.
08-11-13 | 04:14 AM
#34
Trek 500 Kid
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From: Spokane WA
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
.
Here is what the guy who fitted my slotted caged-quill pedal cleats used on me 30 years ago:
The New England Cycling Academy Fit Kit, with its R.A.D. (Rotational Adjustment Device)
He had me bring my bike in and checked out my fit on that first of all. Then he had me spin on it (I don't remember the setup. It was 30 years ago). He had some attachments on my feet with rods that came out the side. When your cleat fit your toe out the rods would rotate straight instead of arcing. It took several adjustments to get my right side correct. I had to look straight ahead as if I were riding on the road so I didn't even get to see any of this while I was pedaling.
It worked exactly right in fitting those cleats. I'm not saying that's the only way to do it but it sure saved me from a lot of trial and error.
I had to laugh at Sheldon Brown's version of toe out. I could show him what toe out really is.
Here is what the guy who fitted my slotted caged-quill pedal cleats used on me 30 years ago:
The New England Cycling Academy Fit Kit, with its R.A.D. (Rotational Adjustment Device)
He had me bring my bike in and checked out my fit on that first of all. Then he had me spin on it (I don't remember the setup. It was 30 years ago). He had some attachments on my feet with rods that came out the side. When your cleat fit your toe out the rods would rotate straight instead of arcing. It took several adjustments to get my right side correct. I had to look straight ahead as if I were riding on the road so I didn't even get to see any of this while I was pedaling.
It worked exactly right in fitting those cleats. I'm not saying that's the only way to do it but it sure saved me from a lot of trial and error.
I had to laugh at Sheldon Brown's version of toe out. I could show him what toe out really is.
08-11-13 | 05:33 AM
#35
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From: Newport News, VA USA
Bikes: Diamondback Edgewood LX; Giant Defy 1
Rich, you have the same shoes I got, but I got the M 530 pedals. I did find, even at the loosest setting, the standard cleats, SH55, gave me difficulty in clipping out. I changed the cleats to the multi-release cleats, SH56, and they are much easier to clip out(I had to make the clip tension higher with those cleats.).
08-11-13 | 05:36 AM
#36
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From: Princeton, NJ, USA
Yeah I already use an extender myself, on the right side with caged quill pedals. Saves my shoe heel from rubbing a hole in the side among other things.
With clipless you still need to have the cleats adjusted right.
With clipless you still need to have the cleats adjusted right.
Conversely, some riders require a reduced Q-factor. This isn't so easy and if it is a consideration then you will have to look at the specifications of new bikes very carefully, since it's usually impractical, if not impossible to address with any given bicycle, although you might lose a couple of millimeters by using a different chainset.
Last edited by ThatBritBloke; 08-11-13 at 05:39 AM. Reason: edit
08-11-13 | 05:37 AM
#37
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From: Annandale, VA
Bikes: Fuji Rubaix 1.0
Rich, you have the same shoes I got, but I got the M 530 pedals. I did find, even at the loosest setting, the standard cleats, SH55, gave me difficulty in clipping out. I changed the cleats to the multi-release cleats, SH56, and they are much easier to clip out(I had to make the clip tension higher with those cleats.).
Rich
08-11-13 | 05:51 AM
#38
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From: Newport News, VA USA
Bikes: Diamondback Edgewood LX; Giant Defy 1
Good you are using a trainer. I practiced on the trainer for a couple of days clipping in and out for about 30 minutes each day of my 90 minute time on the trainer. Using a trainer to practice I feel is a much better option than clipping in and out with one foot on the ground or leaning on a tree, building, or whatever--trainer being far safer and realistic than the other methods.
08-11-13 | 06:02 AM
#40
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Certainly not to correct you at all, the cleats are very new, my LBS guy showed them to me a few weeks ago when I stopped in and got my replacement 6° cleats. I hadn't heard about them either. I like the 6° models and the SPD-SL 105, PD-5700, pedals a lot, I had the PD 540 line and when they wore out I moved up a level. I use the slackest setting for the tension, no pull out problems at all. I cannot rationalize the 4° cleat myself, the difference between a 6° and a 4° is very slight, I am not sensitive enough in my feet to feel that one.
08-11-13 | 04:09 PM
#41
Trek 500 Kid
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From: Spokane WA
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Using extenders increases the Q-Factor of the bicycle. In other words, widens your stance on the pedals. Riders requiring minimal adjustment, ie a couple of millimeters or so - and millimeters do count - can use pedal-washers. Increasing your Q-factor reduces cornering clearance while pedalling, although this isn't normally a major issue unless you regularly race street crits and stuff like that.
Conversely, some riders require a reduced Q-factor. This isn't so easy and if it is a consideration then you will have to look at the specifications of new bikes very carefully, since it's usually impractical, if not impossible to address with any given bicycle, although you might lose a couple of millimeters by using a different chainset.
Conversely, some riders require a reduced Q-factor. This isn't so easy and if it is a consideration then you will have to look at the specifications of new bikes very carefully, since it's usually impractical, if not impossible to address with any given bicycle, although you might lose a couple of millimeters by using a different chainset.
08-11-13 | 07:21 PM
#42
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From: Annandale, VA
Bikes: Fuji Rubaix 1.0
Rich, you have the same shoes I got, but I got the M 530 pedals. I did find, even at the loosest setting, the standard cleats, SH55, gave me difficulty in clipping out. I changed the cleats to the multi-release cleats, SH56, and they are much easier to clip out(I had to make the clip tension higher with those cleats.).
08-15-13 | 11:23 AM
#43
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From: Annandale, VA
Bikes: Fuji Rubaix 1.0
Yeah I already use an extender myself, on the right side with caged quill pedals. Saves my shoe heel from rubbing a hole in the side among other things.
With clipless you still need to have the cleats adjusted right.
With clipless you still need to have the cleats adjusted right.
08-15-13 | 11:49 AM
#44
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SCOR 'Knee savers' push the Q width out to allow duck foot angles , (like those, above)
but since you screw the pedal into them, then screw the whole thing into the crank arm,
pedals that only mount with an allen wrench in the end, wont work.. only, those that use a 15mm open end pedal wrench.
but since you screw the pedal into them, then screw the whole thing into the crank arm,
pedals that only mount with an allen wrench in the end, wont work.. only, those that use a 15mm open end pedal wrench.
08-15-13 | 01:29 PM
#45
Trek 500 Kid
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From: Spokane WA
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Those are exactly the kind I got. I used the right one and went 22 miles on the W&OD trail today with it installed, didn't fee a thing. My right foot found its natural position. Fell over again at a stop, darned left foot clip! (It's me not the clip) I'll learn someday.
The first time I wore toestraps and clips was in my 20s. I pulled up behind a car at a stop sign with 2 teenage girls in the back seat looking at me. I was feeling pretty cool until forgetting to loosen my toestrap.....Needless to say the girls were highly impressed.
08-15-13 | 04:48 PM
#46
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Two years ago I fit a guy to shoes and pedals with the same issue as the OP. With pedal extender and Speedplay road pedals I was able to accommodate the extreme toe out position of his left foot. He used the full outward sweep of the Speedplay cleat. About 10 years ago I had to accommodate not only extreme toe out position, but also a 15mm leg length difference!
Last edited by TiHabanero; 08-15-13 at 04:51 PM.
08-15-13 | 05:53 PM
#47
Trek 500 Kid
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From: Spokane WA
Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road
Two years ago I fit a guy to shoes and pedals with the same issue as the OP. With pedal extender and Speedplay road pedals I was able to accommodate the extreme toe out position of his left foot. He used the full outward sweep of the Speedplay cleat. About 10 years ago I had to accommodate not only extreme toe out position, but also a 15mm leg length difference!
08-15-13 | 08:21 PM
#48
Those are exactly the kind I got. I used the right one and went 22 miles on the W&OD trail today with it installed, didn't fee a thing. My right foot found its natural position. Fell over again at a stop, darned left foot clip! (It's me not the clip) I'll learn someday.
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A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. - S. Wright
Favorite rides in the stable: Indy Fab CJ Ti - Colnago MXL - S-Works Roubaix - Habanero Team Issue - Jamis Eclipse carbon/831
08-16-13 | 08:17 AM
#49
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From: Newport News, VA USA
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Those are exactly the kind I got. I used the right one and went 22 miles on the W&OD trail today with it installed, didn't fee a thing. My right foot found its natural position. Fell over again at a stop, darned left foot clip! (It's me not the clip) I'll learn someday.
12-14-14 | 05:38 PM
#50
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I also have an extreme degree of toe-out. There's a few things I'd like to add to this thread.
Speedplay have 15 degrees of float, and the cleat cannot be rotated on the shoe. This allows for 7.5 degrees of float right, and 7.5 degrees of float to the left - period. This is not even close to enough for my right foot's roughly 16 degrees of toe-out.
I also use a kneesaver pedal extender on the right side. I also twist my Shimano cleat to the maximum, and use the new Shimano shoes with the long 3-hole cleat slots to get even more rotation out of the shoe. This plus the 6 degrees of float on the yellow cleats allow me to get to the 16 degrees I need.
Speedplay have 15 degrees of float, and the cleat cannot be rotated on the shoe. This allows for 7.5 degrees of float right, and 7.5 degrees of float to the left - period. This is not even close to enough for my right foot's roughly 16 degrees of toe-out.
I also use a kneesaver pedal extender on the right side. I also twist my Shimano cleat to the maximum, and use the new Shimano shoes with the long 3-hole cleat slots to get even more rotation out of the shoe. This plus the 6 degrees of float on the yellow cleats allow me to get to the 16 degrees I need.
