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Giant

Old 08-19-20, 07:16 AM
  #51  
ZHVelo
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Congrats on making about a dozen ignore lists.
Thanks!
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Old 08-19-20, 07:57 AM
  #52  
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Several years ago, there was a document posted here that listed the actual manufacturer of all the major brands. IIRC, Giant, Topeak and Merida are the three largest manufacturers. And I believe Merida actually owns half of Specialized.

The story behind Giant is that they got their name because they were so big, they were just known as the giant bicycle manufacturer.
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Old 08-19-20, 08:51 AM
  #53  
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Making bikes under their own brand is a more recent business choice.

that requires setting up regional distribution warehousing and sales reps, creating a dealer network, and all that,,
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Old 08-19-20, 09:31 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
You leave out an incredibly critical detail in this- just because a couple frames come out of the same warehouse doesnt mean they are of the same design or quality.
A contract manufacturer will have many levels of quality they are capable of and which is followed depends on cost and oversight.

You are completely incorrect when you claim they are for the most part all the same.
Remember the more of any product you buy, the lower the cost. While there maybe a couple of different tube sets used, they are all welded up on robots these days. And remember paint covers a lot of sins. So unless you are arguing totally different bikes like a DF and a recumbent, I still contend there isnt a dimes worth if difference in frames or bike names.
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Old 08-19-20, 09:44 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Several years ago, there was a document posted here that listed the actual manufacturer of all the major brands. IIRC, Giant, Topeak and Merida are the three largest manufacturers. And I believe Merida actually owns half of Specialized.

The story behind Giant is that they got their name because they were so big, they were just known as the giant bicycle manufacturer.
But Giant started out quite small in the 70s and built only on contract for other brands. They gained traction by grabbing a Schwinn contract in the late 70s to make lower end bikes, gained more traction in the early 80s when Schwinn's Chicago plant was on strike, and made bikes for various other brands all thru this time too. They started branding their own bikes in the early 80s when they werent known as a giant in the industry and once Schwinn really transitioned away from them to China around 87, Giant was able to fill the void with in-house branded bikes.
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Old 08-19-20, 09:47 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Making bikes under their own brand is a more recent business choice.

that requires setting up regional distribution warehousing and sales reps, creating a dealer network, and all that,,

They've been doing that for at least 33 years, so I guess that's "more" recent, but it sure isn't recent for any reasonable use of the word.

Last edited by livedarklions; 08-19-20 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 08-19-20, 10:03 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Remember the more of any product you buy, the lower the cost. While there maybe a couple of different tube sets used, they are all welded up on robots these days. And remember paint covers a lot of sins. So unless you are arguing totally different bikes like a DF and a recumbent, I still contend there isnt a dimes worth if difference in frames or bike names.

Ok, so let's say Dorel contracts with AsiaBikeCompany(ABC for short) to build the mid and upper level road bike options for Cannondale and GT since both are Dorel brands.

Your assertion is that there isn't a dimension bit of difference between a GT Grade and a Cannondale Topstone? I used these as they are the gravel models for each brand.
Its absurd to claim there isn't a dime's bit of difference.
- different geometry
- different tube shaping and diameter
- different rear suspension technology
- different fork technology

These really are different bikes in both the aluminum and carbon frame offerings.
ABC builds what Dorel's brands ask them to build. ABC charges based on how much finish is needed or time spent on wheel building is desired, etc. If a brand or model wants more QC and better finish, ABC can accommodate, it just costs more.


There are actual examples that don't support your claim- as in Giant or Merida or Ideal make bikes for different brands that perform differently and are finished with varying quality due to the requests of their customers.
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Old 08-19-20, 10:18 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Remember the more of any product you buy, the lower the cost. While there maybe a couple of different tube sets used, they are all welded up on robots these days. And remember paint covers a lot of sins. So unless you are arguing totally different bikes like a DF and a recumbent, I still contend there isnt a dimes worth if difference in frames or bike names.

A contention based on a classic non sequitur.
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Old 08-19-20, 10:23 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
They've been doing that for at least 33 years, so I guess that's "more" recent, but it sure isn't recent for any reasonable use of the word.
Time seems to have stopped for bob back in the mid-90s, so you have to subtract a quarter century off most of what he says.
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Old 08-19-20, 10:36 AM
  #60  
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https://hbr.org/2011/02/arguing-is-pointless.html
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Old 08-19-20, 12:20 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Ok, so let's say Dorel contracts with AsiaBikeCompany(ABC for short) to build the mid and upper level road bike options for Cannondale and GT since both are Dorel brands.

Your assertion is that there isn't a dimension bit of difference between a GT Grade and a Cannondale Topstone? I used these as they are the gravel models for each brand.
Its absurd to claim there isn't a dime's bit of difference.
- different geometry
- different tube shaping and diameter
- different rear suspension technology
- different fork technology

These really are different bikes in both the aluminum and carbon frame offerings.
ABC builds what Dorel's brands ask them to build. ABC charges based on how much finish is needed or time spent on wheel building is desired, etc. If a brand or model wants more QC and better finish, ABC can accommodate, it just costs more.


There are actual examples that don't support your claim- as in Giant or Merida or Ideal make bikes for different brands that perform differently and are finished with varying quality due to the requests of their customers.
Are you following his thread on how we only ride TIG welded bikes because we have been fooled by advertising? If you haven't read it, don't.
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Old 08-19-20, 12:24 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
When people argue over bike brands they have to understand that a half dozen mfg in the world make 99% of bike frames. Those mfg get in orders from the different brands, weld up a frame and paint it with the name of the bike company that ordered it. They for the most part are all the same bike with different paint and name on them.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
You leave out an incredibly critical detail in this- just because a couple frames come out of the same warehouse doesnt mean they are of the same design or quality.
A contract manufacturer will have many levels of quality they are capable of and which is followed depends on cost and oversight.

You are completely incorrect when you claim they are for the most part all the same.
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Remember the more of any product you buy, the lower the cost. While there maybe a couple of different tube sets used, they are all welded up on robots these days. And remember paint covers a lot of sins. So unless you are arguing totally different bikes like a DF and a recumbent, I still contend there isnt a dimes worth if difference in frames or bike names.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Ok, so let's say Dorel contracts with AsiaBikeCompany(ABC for short) to build the mid and upper level road bike options for Cannondale and GT since both are Dorel brands.

Your assertion is that there isn't a dimension bit of difference between a GT Grade and a Cannondale Topstone? I used these as they are the gravel models for each brand. (edit)

ABC builds what Dorel's brands ask them to build. ABC charges based on how much finish is needed or time spent on wheel building is desired, etc. If a brand or model wants more QC and better finish, ABC can accommodate, it just costs more.

There are actual examples that don't support your claim- as in Giant or Merida or Ideal make bikes for different brands that perform differently and are finished with varying quality due to the requests of their customers.
Far be it from me to lump myself in with Ryda .... (j/k, or "just kidding for those of WWI vintage) but he us making a slightly different point, I think.

Yes, Giant, Merida, whoever else make a variety of frames at a variety of different quality levels .... but None of them are anything but very good frames. Some customers might request more QC samples from each run, but still the manufacturers' QC standard is already high, which is why we don't see a lot of lawsuits targeting those companies over frames failing in use (and all you nitpickers about to post all the frame and fork recalls .... go pick more nits. We are all aware here, and still .... show my the litany of lawsuits over failed Giant frames. Go ahead. Even when some bad parts got through, they were caught and replaced quickly. So don't waste everyone's time (feel free to waste your own.))

It was clear to me (and I am never wrong, right? ) that Ryda meant that there is no notable Quality difference between all the frames Giant or any of the other major frame makers produce.---Not that there were no size or color differences. To even think that would be absurd---obviously they produce frames in a range of sizes.

So as far as that, I am forced (shudder) to agree with Rydabent---if you get a Trek or a GT or a Giant of a Cannondale, you are getting about the same level or quality of material and workmanship. it's not like Giant has a production line where it deliberately sets up the robot software wrong for cheap bikes.

And yes, I assume that when Giant makes bikes for a Walmart-level brand, they use cheaper materials and adjust welding and handling times to suit. I assume that the cheaper frames use thicker (marginally) tubing which is easier to weld securely while a more expensive frame with thinner tubing might take a little more care, and thus the robots run a little slower .... but it isn't like we hear about a bunch of low-end Giant or Merida frames failing, either. They do a good job at whatever they do. That is why they are the biggest in the industry.
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Old 08-19-20, 12:31 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider View Post
is this mic on?
so . . . who's here from outtatown, anybody ? . . .
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Old 08-19-20, 01:12 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Far be it from me to lump myself in with Ryda .... (j/k, or "just kidding for those of WWI vintage) but he us making a slightly different point, I think.

Yes, Giant, Merida, whoever else make a variety of frames at a variety of different quality levels .... but None of them are anything but very good frames. Some customers might request more QC samples from each run, but still the manufacturers' QC standard is already high, which is why we don't see a lot of lawsuits targeting those companies over frames failing in use (and all you nitpickers about to post all the frame and fork recalls .... go pick more nits. We are all aware here, and still .... show my the litany of lawsuits over failed Giant frames. Go ahead. Even when some bad parts got through, they were caught and replaced quickly. So don't waste everyone's time (feel free to waste your own.))

It was clear to me (and I am never wrong, right? ) that Ryda meant that there is no notable Quality difference between all the frames Giant or any of the other major frame makers produce.---Not that there were no size or color differences. To even think that would be absurd---obviously they produce frames in a range of sizes.

So as far as that, I am forced (shudder) to agree with Rydabent---if you get a Trek or a GT or a Giant of a Cannondale, you are getting about the same level or quality of material and workmanship. it's not like Giant has a production line where it deliberately sets up the robot software wrong for cheap bikes.

And yes, I assume that when Giant makes bikes for a Walmart-level brand, they use cheaper materials and adjust welding and handling times to suit. I assume that the cheaper frames use thicker (marginally) tubing which is easier to weld securely while a more expensive frame with thinner tubing might take a little more care, and thus the robots run a little slower .... but it isn't like we hear about a bunch of low-end Giant or Merida frames failing, either. They do a good job at whatever they do. That is why they are the biggest in the industry.
But that would actually make sense. He's got another thread he just started where he makes it clear he thinks it's all "junk". His word, not mine.
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Old 08-19-20, 01:25 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Far be it from me to lump myself in with Ryda .... (j/k, or "just kidding for those of WWI vintage) but he us making a slightly different point, I think.

Yes, Giant, Merida, whoever else make a variety of frames at a variety of different quality levels .... but None of them are anything but very good frames. Some customers might request more QC samples from each run, but still the manufacturers' QC standard is already high, which is why we don't see a lot of lawsuits targeting those companies over frames failing in use (and all you nitpickers about to post all the frame and fork recalls .... go pick more nits. We are all aware here, and still .... show my the litany of lawsuits over failed Giant frames. Go ahead. Even when some bad parts got through, they were caught and replaced quickly. So don't waste everyone's time (feel free to waste your own.))

It was clear to me (and I am never wrong, right? ) that Ryda meant that there is no notable Quality difference between all the frames Giant or any of the other major frame makers produce.---Not that there were no size or color differences. To even think that would be absurd---obviously they produce frames in a range of sizes.

So as far as that, I am forced (shudder) to agree with Rydabent---if you get a Trek or a GT or a Giant of a Cannondale, you are getting about the same level or quality of material and workmanship. it's not like Giant has a production line where it deliberately sets up the robot software wrong for cheap bikes.

And yes, I assume that when Giant makes bikes for a Walmart-level brand, they use cheaper materials and adjust welding and handling times to suit. I assume that the cheaper frames use thicker (marginally) tubing which is easier to weld securely while a more expensive frame with thinner tubing might take a little more care, and thus the robots run a little slower .... but it isn't like we hear about a bunch of low-end Giant or Merida frames failing, either. They do a good job at whatever they do. That is why they are the biggest in the industry.
Nope, he said that for the most part they are all the same bike just different paint and name. You read way too much into what he didnt type.

When people argue over bike brands they have to understand that a half dozen mfg in the world make 99% of bike frames. Those mfg get in orders from the different brands, weld up a frame and paint it with the name of the bike company that ordered it. They for the most part are all the same bike with different paint and name on them.
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Old 08-19-20, 01:38 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
if you get a Trek or a GT or a Giant of a Cannondale, you are getting about the same level or quality of material and workmanship. it's not like Giant has a production line where it deliberately sets up the robot software wrong for cheap bikes.

And yes, I assume that when Giant makes bikes for a Walmart-level brand, they use cheaper materials and adjust welding and handling times to suit. I assume that the cheaper frames use thicker (marginally) tubing which is easier to weld securely while a more expensive frame with thinner tubing might take a little more care, and thus the robots run a little slower .... but it isn't like we hear about a bunch of low-end Giant or Merida frames failing, either. They do a good job at whatever they do. That is why they are the biggest in the industry.
This is all true. You're getting a quality product from just about any major brand. But not all bikes across the brand or across a corporate parent are the same. As you said, Wal-Mart level bikes are made with cheaper materials in a way that is faster and easier to produce, whereas the top of the line frames require higher quality materials, machinery and craftsmanship. Now, is the production cost between those two ends of the spectrum that far apart? Probably not, but there is better engineering and craftsmanship and marketing in the higher end bikes.

And regarding the engineering and craftsmanship, I'm reminded of the saying: you're not paying for the 30 min it takes to fix your A/C, you're paying for the 30-years they spent learning about HVAC so it only takes 30-min to fix.
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Old 08-19-20, 01:42 PM
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The article is mostly about supply, and the current conditions that challenge supply, and how Giant is dealing with it now and preparing to deal further with it down the road.
Giant's chairwoman does all the talking . . .

• increased demand
covid has caused a global surge in demand, gyms are closed and public transpo systems are hobbled, more people using bikes for practical and recreational purposes

• manufacturing in China
70% of their bikes are made in China.
Covid related slowdowns / shutdowns are most over and all their facilities in China are operating again.
Tarrifs are a challenge considering how much of their manufacturing happens in China.
Labor shortages are another challenge in China, not as many workers seek factory jobs now as did in the past.

• manufacturing outside China
they moved some manufacturing to Taiwan to lessen the effect of tariffs, but the output capacity of Taiwan is small compared to China's
they plan to manufacture at a new factory in Hungary, but it will produce only 300,000 bikes
they have no plans for production in the US. Although she didn't rule it out, she says it would first require significant gains in automation to make it cost effective, and the current automotaion levels are nowhere near making it cost effective

other than maxing out their current manufacturing capacity, there's no imminent plan to invest in more production capacity, anywhere, so the shortage is going to continue a while.
she comments that this increased demand is a temporary boom, and there was a lull in recent years when demand dropped because bike-share programs slowed around the world.
it kinds seems like regardless of tariffs now or in the future the bulk of the manufacturing will stay in China because no other country's infrastructure is anywhere close to China's for meeting Giant's needs.
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Old 08-19-20, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Several years ago, there was a document posted here that listed the actual manufacturer of all the major brands. IIRC, Giant, Topeak and Merida are the three largest manufacturers. And I believe Merida actually owns half of Specialized.

The story behind Giant is that they got their name because they were so big, they were just known as the giant bicycle manufacturer.

Inner Ring has a section on his website called WHO MAKES WHAT where you can see the ownership / manufacture of many popular and pro-level brands
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Old 08-19-20, 02:04 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Because you and others questioned why i made that post, wrongly questioned it. I replied to you outlining why I did. If you get your panties in a twist because I kept replying, maybe don't ask...

Oh did you? Good for you.
you sound like a damn nagging wife, always got to have the last word in everything huh?
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Old 08-19-20, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
you sound like a damn nagging wife, always got to have the last word in everything huh?
So you are not one of that dozen ignore list I was put on? What a shame.
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Old 08-19-20, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
that bike cannot be stable, wheelbase too short relative to center of mass
Bill Walton has been known to be a bit unstable. My guess is too many drugs at Grateful Dead shows. He was a huge Deadhead.
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Old 08-20-20, 10:08 AM
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BTW In NEVER put anyone on ignore. If you dont listen to all voices, you may fail to learn a vital piece of information that makes you that much more informed.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
BTW In NEVER put anyone on ignore. If you dont listen to all voices, you may fail to learn a vital piece of information that makes you that much more informed.
or something so ridiculous it is highly amusing ... I think you and I probably serve that function for a lot of posters ....
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Old 08-20-20, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
BTW In NEVER put anyone on ignore. If you dont listen to all voices, you may fail to learn a vital piece of information that makes you that much more informed.
And yet, if your posts are any measure, you are not at all informed.
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Old 08-20-20, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
BTW In NEVER put anyone on ignore. If you dont listen to all voices, you may fail to learn a vital piece of information that makes you that much more informed.
How do you explain what seems like your inability or unwillingness to be more informed then?
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