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The End of the Front Derailleur?

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The End of the Front Derailleur?

Old 05-01-21, 09:41 PM
  #1  
CampioneDeCasa
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The End of the Front Derailleur?

I've been mostly into vintage bikes for aesthetics and bang for buck ride quality, so I've never really been one to keep up on new bike tech and the latest trends, but my brother sent me something that I think is rad as all hell, but I can see some obvious drawbacks and was interested to see what the community has to say about it.

The bike company is Classified bikes and their powershift rear hub claim to be able to change the output gear ratio electronically, thus creating a second set of ratios for your cassette like having a 2x drivetrain.

https://youtu.be/UFMhUYoqFyc
No bikes currently in their store, and no dealers west of Spain, but with the popularity of 1x systems, I'm curious if this will actually be a game changer. Thoughts?
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Old 05-01-21, 10:09 PM
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I don't personally see this as the end of the front mech. There are some notable disadvantages to the 2 alternatives. For typical 1x system, you need ever thinner chain, more finicky rear mech adjustment, and much larger jumps between gears for even close to the same range. Adding a set of hub gears decreases efficiency, increases complexity, hub cost, while gaining really not a lot in the process.
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Old 05-01-21, 10:13 PM
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It's an interesting concept, I've seen in various places recently - replacing the front 2X chainwheels with an internal hub 2X, wireless shifting with automatic shifting programmable. The downsides would be hard for the home mechanic to work on, maybe heavier? I'm interested in seeing how it works out.

With both Di2 and ETap, you can pretty much set shifting to be a 1X affair even with 2X cranks - the FD can shift automatically. The hub variation, from what I've read, eliminates any issue with shifting under pressure.
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Old 05-01-21, 10:23 PM
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Old 05-01-21, 11:11 PM
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2x - 1 Derailleur <--- prior discussion.

This is about the coolest bit of new tech that Ive seen in the last handful of years. Everything else has been 'meh' and quite bluntly most of it seems to just be stuff that is clutter and doesnt really improve a riding experience(at least mine).
I never would figure that I will switch to a 1x for gravel since gravel roads are just unpaved roads and my road bikes are 2x. This though?...I could see this being a possible change.

- The battery lasting 3 months is good and important to highlight.
- The ability to shift under load is neat, though I have never approached a 15% grade in my largest ring so is it super needed?

- $200USD for a different cassette is serious money.
- The cassettes only going up to 34t is limiting. Hopefully a 36t will be added soon.
- $2860 for their wheelsets is bonkers. That will eliminate all but the most willing of early adopters.
- The lack of standalone hub so you can just build your own wheel(or have it built) is a massive drawback.
- Service is a question- how fast will issues be resolved when something breaks or the bluetooth simply doesnt connect? You have a cyclist with a $3000 wheelset that only works in whatever gear ratio it happens to be set on.


It doesnt really do much for me that a 2x doesnt already do though, so if my view is similar to others, the cost may be a big hurdle. If this catches on and comes down to a more accessible price point, I would for sure consider it when I need to change my drivetrain.
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Old 05-01-21, 11:29 PM
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‘Tis a consummation devoutly to be wish’d

But yeah this is reminiscent of those old Sachs freehub gear hubs.
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Old 05-02-21, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
‘Tis a consummation devoutly to be wish’d

But yeah this is reminiscent of those old Sachs freehub gear hubs.
If you are referring to the dual drive, the Sachs Orbit predated that and it was a two speed internal. I just recently built this bike with one.

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Old 05-02-21, 06:38 AM
  #8  
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The end of the front derailleur for me was when I realized I didn't need the wide range of a 2 or 3x system. Single chain ring with a tight cassette does it all for me. Less complexity and less weight.
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Old 05-02-21, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CampioneDeCasa View Post
I've been mostly into vintage bikes for aesthetics and bang for buck ride quality, so I've never really been one to keep up on new bike tech and the latest trends, but my brother sent me something that I think is rad as all hell, but I can see some obvious drawbacks and was interested to see what the community has to say about it.

The bike company is Classified bikes and their powershift rear hub claim to be able to change the output gear ratio electronically, thus creating a second set of ratios for your cassette like having a 2x drivetrain.

https://youtu.be/UFMhUYoqFyc
No bikes currently in their store, and no dealers west of Spain, but with the popularity of 1x systems, I'm curious if this will actually be a game changer. Thoughts?
GCN have talked several times about the Classified hub - 1x look with 2x function, easy shifting under load. The wireless electric shift can also be integrated with current electric shifting. However, I can’t see it being more than a niche unless one of the big fish (Shimano or SRAM) either buy them out or start using it under license
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Old 05-02-21, 11:19 AM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by Melvang View Post
I don't personally see this as the end of the front mech. There are some notable disadvantages to the 2 alternatives. For typical 1x system, you need ever thinner chain, more finicky rear mech adjustment, and much larger jumps between gears for even close to the same range. Adding a set of hub gears decreases efficiency, increases complexity, hub cost, while gaining really not a lot in the process.
I don’t think this is an accurate assessment.

First, 1x does not require an “ever thinner chain.” Chain width is determined by the cassette spacing, and so the fact is that since Classified are using 11spd, the chain is actually wider than 2x12 chains as well as Campagnolo’s 1x13 chain.

Next, 1x rear mech adjustment is less finicky because the chainline extremes are eliminated, so there’s less fine adjustment required.

With regards to gear range and cog jumps, while a 50/34 x 11-32 11spd offers a 428% range, Ekar 1x13 offers a very close 400% on their tightest 9-36 cassette which has a more sequential or 1-tooth gear gaps than Ultegra 11-32. Even Ekar’s midrange 9-42 cassette offers more sequential gears than Ultegra 11-32, a whopping 7 sequential to Ultegra’s 4 sequential gears.

With regards to Classified’s advantages, I don’t know what your basis is to assert hub gears are less efficient since they claim their hub gear efficiency is actually greater than a 2x system, with the lower 0.7 gear ratio being 99.x% efficient— in the 1:1 ratio it’s the same as a regular hub— but also because you can use a larger, more efficient chainring all the time rather than needing to drop to a smaller, less efficient chainring, so mechanical efficiency is always optimized.

Yes, there’s more system complexity and cost, but it offers better performance and simplified mechanical maintenance; it shifts faster, more reliably, and in more conditions than a front mech, and removes all adjustment associated with a front mech, including cable, housing, horizontal angle, vertical height, and cage movement limit adjustments. It does not require a mech mount or clamp, no mounting bolt, no allen keys or screwdrivers for adjustment.

Yeah, you’ve got to charge it, but I think in the same way that automotive service shops today need electronic tools they didn’t need 40 years ago, that kind of complex tech innovation which has made cars more reliable and easier to live with can do the same thing for bicycles with systems like Classified PowerShift. Disc brakes are another example of that, providing better braking, simplified adjustment, and lower maintenance compared to cantilever brakes of the ‘80s, while simultaneously affording more options in tire size, aeodynamics and wheel design.
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Old 05-02-21, 01:49 PM
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Dual hub shift


Cost will keep the technology less attractive, especially when you can buy a decent ready-2-ride bicycle with a front der setup for less. I would consider the new tech rear hub if I came into bicycle dedicated funding &/or the price dropped 75%.

Also, if a much taller hub flange was designed with a "step" towards the rim's centerline, 1x12 could see competition with even more 1x?? setups. .... 1x18? hella crosschaining!
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Old 05-03-21, 01:11 PM
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Front derailleur is so much simpler and less vulnerable than the rear, what about a beard hub and two chain rings?
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Old 05-04-21, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
If you are referring to the dual drive, the Sachs Orbit predated that and it was a two speed internal. I just recently built this bike with one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oYzefP6dVU

Holy cow, this already exists? The Classified hub made me wonder if it could be done on an old 3 speed internal hub, and this is exactly the thing I was dreaming about! I knew there was no way my dumb ass was the first to think it up, but if this setup works well, I would be far more inclined to use an analog hub rather than have to charge my bluetooth hub and shifter. Very cool. Thanks for sharing!
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Old 05-04-21, 01:33 PM
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Agreed

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
2x - 1 Derailleur <--- prior discussion..

- The battery lasting 3 months is good and important to highlight.
- The ability to shift under load is neat, though I have never approached a 15% grade in my largest ring so is it super needed?

- $200USD for a different cassette is serious money.
- The cassettes only going up to 34t is limiting. Hopefully a 36t will be added soon.
- $2860 for their wheelsets is bonkers. That will eliminate all but the most willing of early adopters.
- The lack of standalone hub so you can just build your own wheel(or have it built) is a massive drawback.
- Service is a question- how fast will issues be resolved when something breaks or the bluetooth simply doesnt connect? You have a cyclist with a $3000 wheelset that only works in whatever gear ratio it happens to be set on.


It doesnt really do much for me that a 2x doesnt already do though, so if my view is similar to others, the cost may be a big hurdle. If this catches on and comes down to a more accessible price point, I would for sure consider it when I need to change my drivetrain.
All valid things to me. Despite how cool I think the tech is, adding a battery to both the hub and shifter and needing batteries/charging sounds like a drag, and the price point being astronomical is no help either. I can't help but imagine bluetooth issues could arise, and I don't think anything could possibly be more frustrating than connectivity issues mid ride.

I think u/litespud also brought up what I was thinking in terms of the potential success of rhe classified hub, and I was thinking that it would be an interesting match with Sram seeing as how they and seemingly all gravel bike manufacturers have an incurable hard-on for 1x drivetrains. I'm starting the slow shopping process for a gravel bike that I plan on using for everything other than dry roads, and as much as I love sram for road riding, even if they were to add the hub shifter, I'd probably still opt for GRX since I seem to have a hard time shifting Sram on rough terrain. Anyone else, or was I just riding an older groupset?
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Old 05-04-21, 03:06 PM
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WOW... Really Nice!

It's good to see useful development. Of course, I can't afford it, but it's nice to see bicycle engineers taking it to another level.

Is it for me? Most likely not as I still have my shifters on the down tube.

But don't get me wrong, it's nice to see plastic, aluminium, carbon, disk breaks, changed geometry, tubeless tires, shifting transmissions all come to fruition...
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Old 05-12-21, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CampioneDeCasa View Post
I've been mostly into vintage bikes for aesthetics and bang for buck ride quality, so I've never really been one to keep up on new bike tech and the latest trends, but my brother sent me something that I think is rad as all hell, but I can see some obvious drawbacks and was interested to see what the community has to say about it.

The bike company is Classified bikes and their powershift rear hub claim to be able to change the output gear ratio electronically, thus creating a second set of ratios for your cassette like having a 2x drivetrain.

https://youtu.be/UFMhUYoqFyc
No bikes currently in their store, and no dealers west of Spain, but with the popularity of 1x systems, I'm curious if this will actually be a game changer. Thoughts?
Bottom line here is it is just another passing fad. For about 25 years the "real cyclist" golden goal was ever more gears. Now with the 1x we are back to 1975. This too shall pass.
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Old 05-17-21, 01:40 PM
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this is the "choose groupset" from ridley website for kanzo fast bike

don't get me wrong, I love innovation but 1k euros more for classified shifting technology, no comments
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Old 05-17-21, 02:34 PM
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massive 3D Imax goggles, I want one.

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Old 05-17-21, 02:35 PM
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So, a slightly updated IGH. One that only has 2 internal gears and shifts electronically. Pass.
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Old 05-21-21, 07:30 PM
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So I suppose I have a follow up question as to whether anyone thinks there would be more interest in an analog version of the rear hub. Not sure if that could easily be internally routed in a way that would make the effort and cost any more efficient than just buying a 2x, but I'm already a bit of a Luddite when it comes to bike stuff and would prefer my stuff to remain analog.
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Old 05-21-21, 07:45 PM
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i wouldn't be surprised if a cable actuated hyd/servo dual hub wasn't already in the works.
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Old 05-22-21, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CampioneDeCasa View Post
So I suppose I have a follow up question as to whether anyone thinks there would be more interest in an analog version of the rear hub. Not sure if that could easily be internally routed in a way that would make the effort and cost any more efficient than just buying a 2x, but I'm already a bit of a Luddite when it comes to bike stuff and would prefer my stuff to remain analog.
I don’t see any advantage to adding mechanical complexity just to avoid…what, electricity use? I don’t think that electricity is going scarce for most of us anytime soon, and even fewer of us have made any effort at all to harness solar or generate our own in any way at all. Just riding our bikes could generate electricity, but how many of us even have a generator hub? No, I think avoiding the benefits of electricity is pretty silly, and even if the hub system battery was to go flat, you’d still have 11 (or more) gears to choose from, hardly a catastrophe.
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Old 05-22-21, 06:14 AM
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The likelihood of repairing a mechanical & hydraulic is higher for the average at home cyclist mechanic... as well as on the road.
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Old 05-22-21, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CampioneDeCasa View Post
So I suppose I have a follow up question as to whether anyone thinks there would be more interest in an analog version of the rear hub. Not sure if that could easily be internally routed in a way that would make the effort and cost any more efficient than just buying a 2x, but I'm already a bit of a Luddite when it comes to bike stuff and would prefer my stuff to remain analog.
Personally, I cannot see myself replacing my 2X for this Classified rear hub. It is not worth the money. It isn't just the 2300 Euros for the kit, it would also require different spacing and therefore, a whole new frame. In 50 years, I have never had a problem with front derailleurs. But this Classified gear does allows a great deal more efficiency than a 2X or 1X. It looks like a great device, it just won't fit any of my bikes or any that I would likely buy in the near future.
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Old 05-22-21, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Personally, I cannot see myself replacing my 2X for this Classified rear hub. It is not worth the money. It isn't just the 2300 Euros for the kit, it would also require different spacing and therefore, a whole new frame. In 50 years, I have never had a problem with front derailleurs. But this Classified gear does allows a great deal more efficiency than a 2X or 1X. It looks like a great device, it just won't fit any of my bikes or any that I would likely buy in the near future.
I totally agree about the price and availability. I guess there's only so many ways to repackage the question until I'm willing to concede that this may, in fact, be a very passing phase in the neverending slog of short lived bike tech.

I originally was going to add something about how it seems lots of companies are already giving people the option for a wider tire at 650b sizing for some new gravel/tour/cross bikes, so it could potentially still fit the same frame, but then there's no built in way to actuate the hub and I'm all Brian McKnight and starting back at one.
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