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Why Did America Give Up on Mass Transit?

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Why Did America Give Up on Mass Transit?

Old 06-01-19, 10:01 AM
  #76  
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Imagine if US had as nice a public transit system as Switzerland, but Our system's leaders prefer spending
on weapons and violence.
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Old 06-01-19, 11:26 AM
  #77  
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TP there is no where in the constitution that an employer has to try and make life easier for someone to LCF. LCF is a choice that, like budgeting, takes into account the difficulties that lifestyle brings with it. An employer can and often does require a dress code and that doesn’t bother me either. If someone freely chose to live car free it is not society’s responsibility to change to make that choice easier.

If however people want to provide an alternative to a transportation choice the majority of society has embraced then it is the alternative that has to equal or beat the service level provided. If an applicant doesn’t meet the needs of a Job provider then the employer should have the choice to find someone that will.

And this also has nothing to do with why we have turned our back on Mass Transit. The lack of service and built in limitations in mass transit does. Wishing will not change that. Make a system that gets people from where they want to where they want when they want it and you will get society interested. Trying to get people to change to make a system work will never work in the long run.
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Old 06-01-19, 09:30 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
TP there is no where in the constitution that an employer has to try and make life easier for someone to LCF. LCF is a choice that, like budgeting, takes into account the difficulties that lifestyle brings with it. An employer can and often does require a dress code and that doesn’t bother me either. If someone freely chose to live car free it is not society’s responsibility to change to make that choice easier.
If an employer required LCF to qualify for a given job, you and some others would cry about the freedom to drive. It doesn't bother you if an employer requires a candidate drive/own a personal motor vehicle to get hired, but it would bother you tremendously if one required candidates not to own/drive one to get hired.

If however people want to provide an alternative to a transportation choice the majority of society has embraced then it is the alternative that has to equal or beat the service level provided. If an applicant doesn’t meet the needs of a Job provider then the employer should have the choice to find someone that will.
What if employers told applicants that they were required to submit to random car-checks, like drug testing, and if they were found to own a car, they would face immediate termination? Would you accept that?

And this also has nothing to do with why we have turned our back on Mass Transit. The lack of service and built in limitations in mass transit does. Wishing will not change that. Make a system that gets people from where they want to where they want when they want it and you will get society interested. Trying to get people to change to make a system work will never work in the long run.
The problem isn't trying to get people to change; it's trying to stop automotive interests from getting involved in transit planning in such a way that whittles down transit convenience to something that basically just markets car ownership. Have you ever noticed how many products are crafted in a way that is lacking so that customers will purchase the next product up the price ladder? That is the way transit systems are designed, which leads me to suspect that people involved with designing those transit systems are being careful to make sure there will be plenty of incentive to go out and buy a car as soon as people can afford to.

Basically, transportation choice is co-opted to function as a motivational tool for promoting car-ownership.
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Old 06-01-19, 09:48 PM
  #79  
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Nothing you are complaining about is been presented as evidence. There are certain physical limitations the car free person has restricted themselves to and it is not societies job to cater to that. You have no car free examples of how to transit LA unified school district by bicycle if assigned to cover two schools 12 miles apart. It is not the employer’s fault you cannot fly like Superman.

Now back to the topic how can you suggest mass transit and buses in particular can address the issue of comfort, convenience and punctuality at a level like let’s say lyft or Uber could? Or yes a private car can. That is the problem and the only problem that must be addressed in why we as a society that have an affinity for punctuality feels about mass transit. Nothing about pay scales or employer policies or a desire for living close to the local 7/11 matters.
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Old 06-02-19, 09:42 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
If an employer required LCF to qualify for a given job, you and some others would cry about the freedom to drive. It doesn't bother you if an employer requires a candidate drive/own a personal motor vehicle to get hired, but it would bother you tremendously if one required candidates not to own/drive one to get hired.


What if employers told applicants that they were required to submit to random car-checks, like drug testing, and if they were found to own a car, they would face immediate termination? Would you accept that?


As long as all that info is presented up front, either in a job listing or at the interview, no problem.

It makes me think of when I was looking into changing careers many years ago. I came across plenty of job listings requiring a 4 year college degree and other job listings that flatly said "Afraid of heights? Don't apply".

If any job listing required living car free and I wasn't already living car free, I'd look at other job listings.

Edit to add, another thought:

What if you get the LCF job and after a year, their building lease is up and they move 10 miles further from your home?

I remember a job I got in 1987, worked there 1 year and then the whole shop moved. I lived close to the original location, but did not live close to the new location. Good thing I was a motorcyclist at the time which allowed me to keep that job.

(BTW, is a full time motorcyclist Living Car Free?)

Last edited by FiftySix; 06-02-19 at 09:50 AM. Reason: typo and typo
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Old 06-02-19, 01:28 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Nothing you are complaining about is been presented as evidence. There are certain physical limitations the car free person has restricted themselves to and it is not societies job to cater to that. You have no car free examples of how to transit LA unified school district by bicycle if assigned to cover two schools 12 miles apart. It is not the employer’s fault you cannot fly like Superman.

Now back to the topic how can you suggest mass transit and buses in particular can address the issue of comfort, convenience and punctuality at a level like let’s say lyft or Uber could? Or yes a private car can. That is the problem and the only problem that must be addressed in why we as a society that have an affinity for punctuality feels about mass transit. Nothing about pay scales or employer policies or a desire for living close to the local 7/11 matters.
I made the same point twice, but as usual you avoid the points that don't work in your favor. All I said is that you are not bothered at all when/if a job requires driving as a requirement for employment, but you and others like you would complain if a job advertised car-ownership and/or debt as grounds for dismissal. You would then complain that people should be free to drive to work if that's their choice.

It may not be realistic enough to you to worry about people losing jobs and opportunities because they own and drive cars instead of using biking/transit, but it isn't that far-fetched that we could see a trend of debt as grounds for dismissal, in which case only people who own their vehicles outright without debt would be allowed to apply and/or remain employed. How many people would be able to afford to drive if they had to pay for their vehicle in full without a loan or term-payment contract?

Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post

As long as all that info is presented up front, either in a job listing or at the interview, no problem.

It makes me think of when I was looking into changing careers many years ago. I came across plenty of job listings requiring a 4 year college degree and other job listings that flatly said "Afraid of heights? Don't apply".

If any job listing required living car free and I wasn't already living car free, I'd look at other job listings.

Edit to add, another thought:

What if you get the LCF job and after a year, their building lease is up and they move 10 miles further from your home?

I remember a job I got in 1987, worked there 1 year and then the whole shop moved. I lived close to the original location, but did not live close to the new location. Good thing I was a motorcyclist at the time which allowed me to keep that job.

(BTW, is a full time motorcyclist Living Car Free?)
Imo, a motorcycle is a type of motor-vehicle, but technically so is an e-bike or e-scooter. I don't like motorcycles because they are loud, but I appreciate that many motorcyclists want to be noticed so they don't get killed by lane-changing drivers that didn't see them.

As for the job moving, I can imagine an employer saying they only want to hire people who live within five miles of the workplace and if you drive you're fired. Someone might ask for special consideration if they really like long distance commuting or have a transit system that can get them to work at that distance. People who want to drive to work would just complain about the requirement, though, and what's more there would be concerted political efforts to stop employers and/or local governments from making and enforcing rules that punish people for choosing driving over other modes. As I recall, there may have been some news stories some years ago about this kind of thing actually occurring, where some employers tried giving incentives to employees who biked to work, but then the employees ended up complaining about not qualifying for the incentives because they drove.

Anyway, the point is that it feels very unfair and discriminatory when you don't want to drive or own a car but some employer makes having and driving a car a condition for getting/keeping the job. M155's post bothered me because he quietly enjoys dropping facts like that, knowing that such discrimination would actively impact the life opportunities of car-free people and push us to drive or forego opportunities if we don't.

I just point out that what goes around comes around, and if he accepts such discrimination against LCFers for not driving, he can expect for himself or someone he cares about to experience similar discrimination at some point. It may not be because of driving or even directly related to transportation, but when it happens he will understand how it feels and how it feels when others are indifferent toward you or people you care about being blocked from opportunities because of life choices.

Last edited by tandempower; 06-02-19 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 06-02-19, 02:53 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I made the same point twice, but as usual you avoid the points that don't work in your favor. All I said is that you are not bothered at all when/if a job requires driving as a requirement for employment, but you and others like you would complain if a job advertised car-ownership and/or debt as grounds for dismissal. You would then complain that people should be free to drive to work if that's their choice.

It may not be realistic enough to you to worry about people losing jobs and opportunities because they own and drive cars instead of using biking/transit, but it isn't that far-fetched that we could see a trend of debt as grounds for dismissal, in which case only people who own their vehicles outright without debt would be allowed to apply and/or remain employed. How many people would be able to afford to drive if they had to pay for their vehicle in full without a loan or term-payment contract?


Imo, a motorcycle is a type of motor-vehicle, but technically so is an e-bike or e-scooter. I don't like motorcycles because they are loud, but I appreciate that many motorcyclists want to be noticed so they don't get killed by lane-changing drivers that didn't see them.

As for the job moving, I can imagine an employer saying they only want to hire people who live within five miles of the workplace and if you drive you're fired. Someone might ask for special consideration if they really like long distance commuting or have a transit system that can get them to work at that distance. People who want to drive to work would just complain about the requirement, though, and what's more there would be concerted political efforts to stop employers and/or local governments from making and enforcing rules that punish people for choosing driving over other modes. As I recall, there may have been some news stories some years ago about this kind of thing actually occurring, where some employers tried giving incentives to employees who biked to work, but then the employees ended up complaining about not qualifying for the incentives because they drove.

Anyway, the point is that it feels very unfair and discriminatory when you don't want to drive or own a car but some employer makes having and driving a car a condition for getting/keeping the job. M155's post bothered me because he quietly enjoys dropping facts like that, knowing that such discrimination would actively impact the life opportunities of car-free people and push us to drive or forego opportunities if we don't.

I just point out that what goes around comes around, and if he accepts such discrimination against LCFers for not driving, he can expect for himself or someone he cares about to experience similar discrimination at some point. It may not be because of driving or even directly related to transportation, but when it happens he will understand how it feels and how it feels when others are indifferent toward you or people you care about being blocked from opportunities because of life choices.
Can you post a single real-world instance -- just one -- of a job notice that requires either or both of the physical and legal ability to drive (i.e. valid driver's license) and ownership of a personal motor vehicle where the duties of the position in question do not inherently require either?

I can't for the life of me think of an instance where an employer has a vacancy for a position the duties of which do not require driving/owning a car, and rejected an otherwise well-qualified applicant because, and only because, she or he is LCF. I can't imagine why any sane employer would do so.

But you might have some examples. So, let's see them. I don't mean imagined examples, or hypothetical examples, or extrapolated examples in the abstract -- I mean actual examples.
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Old 06-02-19, 03:03 PM
  #83  
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TP
you have made no points any number of times. You have no clue how I would act if a job required a bicycle or even walking to work. No more than you had a clue as to why the Great Plains lacked great forests.

We we are supposed to be talking about why the people in the US have turned their back on buses or mass transit not how you feel about employers and their requirements or noise.

It it is not now nor never will be my place to tell others how to get from point A to point B or from home to work. But if they choose to walk and a great job is posted 35 miles from their house and there are no buses it is not up to me to figure how they can get to the interview let alone keep the job.

It it is my opinion that buses are not flexible enough to meet the need of most people in the US. I for one cannot see how they will ever fix that. The idea that some other form of personal transportation can meet those needs is significant. The idea that someone rejects that other form of transportation is on that other person. I can be sympathetic to someone who is poor due to circumstances and understand that society should try and provide a separate option for them. I do not have the same concern for people that make a preference of minimalism and then complain life is too easy or accommodating to those they prefer not to be like.

Your perspective only needs to look at what society is doing and how the greatest number of people adapt to see a solution that works for the most people. What you feel about job requirements, or the noise of a motorcycle has nothing to do with why someone doesn’t care to ride a bus. A life is not about how someone feels it is about learning to service.
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Old 06-02-19, 05:10 PM
  #84  
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https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/...nformation.cfm

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/index.cfm
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Old 06-02-19, 05:13 PM
  #85  
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I don't know about where you live, but around here employers are begging for qualified applicants.

In my line of work they are paying over scale, even more if you have a CDL
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Old 06-02-19, 05:34 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
A life is not about how someone feels it is about learning to service.
Yes, it's about learning to service all living things, not just humans, and not just this generation or century or millennium, but for the permanent sustainability of all future generations to come.

Good luck convincing yourself of that, let alone anyone else; when you don't even care about your own local school district requiring everyone to drive to get a job.
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Old 06-02-19, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
I don't know about where you live, but around here employers are begging for qualified applicants.

In my line of work they are paying over scale, even more if you have a CDL
Oops... you just joined the conspiracy of people making too much money and discriminating against those who want to work for less.

We we hold a conspiracy meeting once a month at a coffee shop in the mall with $5.00 coffee just a block from the bus stop.
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Old 06-02-19, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
Can you post a single real-world instance -- just one -- of a job notice that requires either or both of the physical and legal ability to drive (i.e. valid driver's license) and ownership of a personal motor vehicle where the duties of the position in question do not inherently require either?

I can't for the life of me think of an instance where an employer has a vacancy for a position the duties of which do not require driving/owning a car, and rejected an otherwise well-qualified applicant because, and only because, she or he is LCF. I can't imagine why any sane employer would do so.

But you might have some examples. So, let's see them. I don't mean imagined examples, or hypothetical examples, or extrapolated examples in the abstract -- I mean actual examples.
So ...

<crickets>
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Old 06-02-19, 06:54 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Oops... you just joined the conspiracy of people making too much money and discriminating against those who want to work for less.

We we hold a conspiracy meeting once a month at a coffee shop in the mall with $5.00 coffee just a block from the bus stop.
Pffft ... you know perfectly well that you, like me, are enslaved to and agents of the Deep Auto Conspiracy.

To me, no day is complete without a) denying a job to someone who is LCF and b) killing a tree and paving over the vacated space.

I just know you think the same way.
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Old 06-02-19, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Oops... you just joined the conspiracy of people making too much money and discriminating against those who want to work for less.

We we hold a conspiracy meeting once a month at a coffee shop in the mall with $5.00 coffee just a block from the bus stop.
P.S. ... will you be at our next general meeting in Zurich? It should be interesting; we'll be discussing how best to discriminate against those 'LCF persons' while not appearing to do so. Also on our 'hidden' agenda: strategies to ensure that any and all initiatives in favour of rapid transit etc. are discouraged while at the same time 'appearing' to be in favour of same.

We have a number of keynote speakers scheduled. We look forward to hearing from you.
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Old 06-02-19, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
P.S. ... will you be at our next general meeting in Zurich? It should be interesting; we'll be discussing how best to discriminate against those 'LCF persons' while not appearing to do so. Also on our 'hidden' agenda: strategies to ensure that any and all initiatives in favour of rapid transit etc. are discouraged while at the same time 'appearing' to be in favour of same.

We have a number of keynote speakers scheduled. We look forward to hearing from you.
I am getting my car painted like a bus as we speak. I will transfer to a plane disguised as a sailing ship. I hope to be met at the airport dressed as a long haired hermit. I need to transfer some bit coin so I cannot be traced. No following the money for me. Have someone meet me holding the sign, Willkommen, Mr. Ford.
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Old 06-02-19, 08:09 PM
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At least you're holding it in Zurich, which according to another poster, has an excellent public transit system. Take notes.
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Old 06-02-19, 08:18 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
I am getting my car painted like a bus as we speak. I will transfer to a plane disguised as a sailing ship. I hope to be met at the airport dressed as a long haired hermit. I need to transfer some bit coin so I cannot be traced. No following the money for me. Have someone meet me holding the sign, Willkommen, Mr. Ford.
Excellent. I will ensure that one of our gnomes contacts you via the 'deep web' to facilitate your arrangements.
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Old 06-02-19, 08:24 PM
  #94  
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Wonderful read, thanks for posting!
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Old 06-03-19, 09:25 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
P.S. ... will you be at our next general meeting in Zurich? It should be interesting; we'll be discussing how best to discriminate against those 'LCF persons' while not appearing to do so. Also on our 'hidden' agenda: strategies to ensure that any and all initiatives in favour of rapid transit etc. are discouraged while at the same time 'appearing' to be in favour of same.

We have a number of keynote speakers scheduled. We look forward to hearing from you.
You don't have to do anything to join the conspiracy except what you're doing, i.e. expressing indifference and ridicule/hate against people who seek to transcend it and hopefully end it one day.

You don't have to have sinister meetings in Zurich. Just sell your soul to the local car dealer and insurance agent so they have a secure funding contract from you. They'll do the rest. Congratulations on selling out the planet and future humans to indifference and present-moment indulgence. Enjoy your party while it lasts.
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Old 06-03-19, 11:13 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
You don't have to do anything to join the conspiracy except what you're doing, i.e. expressing indifference and ridicule/hate against people who seek to transcend it and hopefully end it one day.

You don't have to have sinister meetings in Zurich. Just sell your soul to the local car dealer and insurance agent so they have a secure funding contract from you. They'll do the rest. Congratulations on selling out the planet and future humans to indifference and present-moment indulgence. Enjoy your party while it lasts.
You just crack me up! Never disappoint.
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Old 06-03-19, 11:24 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
You just crack me up! Never disappoint.
I am almost always disappointed and saddened at whatever you post. You probably consider that a good thing, though.
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Old 06-03-19, 07:02 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I am almost always disappointed and saddened at whatever you post. You probably consider that a good thing, though.
What is sad is we are supposed to be addressing the problem with mass transit in this country and someone keeps trying to drag the conversation to people who work hard make too much money or live in the wrong places. Maybe the hardest part is the contention that there is a cabal that is formed because if someone wants to be Car Free the rest of society is guilty because that lifestyle is more difficult than the one society has moved toward for 100 years. The majority should change because the ultra minority says it should? The majority should embrace mass transit even if it doesn’t work for them?

Some people do find the constant complaining about how others choose to live as amusing. I have never told my neighbor what to drive or where to live and am not interested in having a neighbor telling me to ride a bus rather than a motorcycle or my car or a tractor trailer. And if they do I just smile because I find the bus less that the best method for me and my family. Disappointing that neighbor would be fine with me.
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Old 06-03-19, 07:06 PM
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pedex 
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
What is sad is we are supposed to be addressing the problem with mass transit in this country and someone keeps trying to drag the conversation to people who work hard make too much money or live in the wrong places. Maybe the hardest part is the contention that there is a cabal that is formed because if someone wants to be Car Free the rest of society is guilty because that lifestyle is more difficult than the one society has moved toward for 100 years. The majority should change because the ultra minority says it should? The majority should embrace mass transit even if it doesn’t work for them?

Some people do find the constant complaining about how others choose to live as amusing. I have never told my neighbor what to drive or where to live and am not interested in having a neighbor telling me to ride a bus rather than a motorcycle or my car or a tractor trailer. And if they do I just smile because I find the bus less that the best method for me and my family. Disappointing that neighbor would be fine with me.
I got out of bike advocacy for many of these reasons.
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Old 06-03-19, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pedex View Post
I got out of bike advocacy for many of these reasons.
Some touch of the same reasons here. I kept at it for a long time but realized it simply wouldn’t work for “ most” of the people I know. Over the years I learned that most people are not fools that are manipulated by Madison Avenue but rather have made life decisions that they hope will work best for them.

I also learned people that go out and do things tend to spend less time telling others what to do.
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