Maelstrom 

Agreed

C Law

Very Funny!!

Actually, that described most of the people in my wed night ride.

willtsmith_nwi

This is not true, equestrians do not have access to all areas. They are denied access to many places because the poop all over the place and the riders don't like to stop to clean it up.

The truth of the matter here is that there are no "free-rides". It's not free for XC riders and it's certainly not free for free-riders (note my ironic wordplay here ;-). Someone has to take responsibility.

Now, there ARE free-riders who take responsibility and work with land managers. They keep their access. But you just cannot barge your way onto an existing trail from other users and modify it. All your other arguments are moot if you insist on being a "renegade".

You will find that IMBA is quite supportive of Freeriding. One way they help is by providing proven designs and instructions as to how to form relationships with land managers and how to build sustainable obstacles. However, at the end of the day, if the land manager says no ... that's it. And if you put yourself into opposition with the existing trail users, you can expect anything you put up will be dismantled.

If you are engaged in a war with land stewards by building freeride stunts on a trail, than that might explain why they are looking at you funny. Because if you are riding a 7" travel bike on a cross country course that might identify you as a suspect for who is causing the mayhem.

Bottom line is ... if it's not approved, it's removed. That's all there is to it. The landowner can be held liable if someone gets hurt on a man-made obstacle on their property. It does not matter whether they built it or not. You need to work with the local trail group to set something up. Be prepared to put in a lot of work before they take you seriously. And be prepared to compromise on what you want. I have talked to many people who say "I volunteer" and typically that means once a year or a couple dollars in a donation box. If you put in serious time, you will be heard.

I guarantee you that the trail stewards don't care what kind of bicycle you ride just so long as you don't muck with things. And they will work with you help them with what needs to get done to keep everything open and running right. You cannot just barge in an put up whatever you want and expect everyone else to go along with it.

ih8_punkrock

I agree with almost everything you are saying here, except for the way you are talking to me, like I am "insisting on being a renegade" FR-er. That makes me go ? ? ? ?

And to label someone trouble or a suspect because they are on a 7" travel bike is just as bad as labelling someone **** because they are on an old klunker from 1985. Some people can only afford ONE bike, so they try to get the bike where their heart's at. At least they are out there riding.

And ya, IMBA is doing some good stuff.

cryptid01

And that totally nearsighted and absurd statement brings this thread full circle. Mtnbiker66's original post had to do with the fact that we were in fact denigrated strictly because of the the bikes we were riding. No one was wearing a full face helmet, body armor, building wooden features, or shotgunning Red Bull.

We were just out bike riding.

People who perpetuate stereotypes are idiots, plain and simple.

ih8_punkrock

dminor 

I feel so lucky living in Eastern Washington when I read of access and/or user-conflict issues elsewhere. One of our most-ridden areas - Beacon Hill - is an every-rider's dream. Lots of singletrack, lots of climbs and two purpose-built NORBA DH courses that anyone can ride any time. And most of it is City park land, augmented by cooperative private landowners. In addition, our local IMBA-affiliated club (the Fat Tire Trail Riders) have officially 'adopted' the area and are not only maintaining and building new trails (with the city's blessing), they have reached out to include most of the major freeride/stunt-building groups in planning/building sustainable, permanent stunts. Most of these people in the club are XC and trail riders, but they recognize the reality and are working hard to include FR into the overall scheme. They are even applying for a Kona grant and another one to help pay for the materials and such to do quality builds.

As always, positive energy and tangible action speak volumes more than talk and attitude.

cryptid01

Don't be so sure my statement didn't cover you as well.

ih8_punkrock

Huh ? ? ?

Minesbroken

wow...wow...this thread wasnt about putting up obsticles and taking them down it was about riding through the trail and being ridiculed for being a different kind of rider. Most of the arrogant nasty people just happen to have expensive bikes, expensive clothes and bad attitudes... all I'm saying is that when I meet someone like that on the trail if they bother me enough I just might tell them to race me or put a skirt on with those tights No offense to the ladies as the ladies usually arent the ones makin the trouble.

mtnbiker66

That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on BF!!
I don't know what it's like where you ride but a 7" trail rig is as at home on the trails around here as a XC rig.
Minesbroken,you were talking about expensive bikes..... We weren't rolling junk, Those rigs Gastro and Wheelie mert were on are pretty pricey.

Flak

I attended my first CAMBA meeting yesterday, and after hearing the trials and tribulations they have to go through just to be allowed to put in some singletrack somewhere, you really learn to appreciate their efforts.

Its taken years of negotiating with the Cuyahoga National Park and Cleveland Metro Parks for them to even consider allowing mtn biking on their land, and this is just to start a dialog with these people. There are still no trails allowed but they are getting there. There is massive opposition from other advocacy groups like the horse riders and hikers. CAMBA has put in many man hours helping build other peoples trails that they aren’t even allowed to ride on, just to build some good will with these people and get rid of the stereotype that mtn bikers are punks that don’t respect the land or others.

How do you think they feel when after years of time, talk, and hard labour on the ground, they finally get permission to build a trail, only to have it modified by some guys who want something different, pissing off the land owners, drawing complaints from other users, and eventually getting the trail shut down?

Ofcourse they are going to dismantle things that would jeopardise their use of the land. It's got nothing to do with hate, its about them wanting to keep the trails they fought hard to get. They earned them, free riders should respect that.

Bottom line. You need permission from land owners to build a trail.

xcaliber

That's exactly the bottom line. I'm not opposed to style I'm opposed to people; people who feel they are born with the right simply because it's theirs to use as well. Anyone who chooses to refute that, XC, DH or FR, can't expect a warm response.

willtsmith_nwi

ih8_punkrock, you seem to be defending the badly behaved free-riders who build stuff without permission. This is why ask if you are insisting on being a renegade. I.e. do your own thing with no respect to other land users or to the land manager's wishes.

I can absoluetly appreciate "the one bike". I am not saying that anyone should descriminate against people with long travel bikes. I'm saying

that if land stewards are having difficulty with unauthorized cuts (typically fall line trails which is a free-ride specialty) than those using long travel bikes on XC courses are going to attract suspicion. If there is a knife murder, the guy holding a knife is typically a suspect. That doesn't mean you conclude they did it. It means they are a candidate ;-)

This is not such a big problem on my local trail. Most problems I have are with with "shortcuts" between loops on relatively flat ground. We've had just a couple of fall line trails cut in, but they were few and far between, no need for a jihad. So I don't look at people with trail bikes with an evil eye. But if I had a serious problem that threatened to close the trail, I would start getting very serious about tracking down who it was.

Trails do get shut down. There are responsible free-riders out there. I have no idea what the percentage is. But I guarantee you it's not XC guys on hardtails with team kits cutting across switchbacks.

Gastro, please read what I've written above. You have taken what I said of of context. I have no bias against what type of bike people ride so long as they do it responsibly. For the record, I ride a cheapo Giant Yukon hardtail (with upgrades) and a crappy fork, so I'm not sure what kind of snobbery I could express against someone riding a $1000+ trail bike. I personally wish I had enough $$$ to get a Santa Cruz Nomad or a Lenz Leviathan that are good XC plus some travel for the rough stuff.

Well, other people chimed in and reflected a freerider attitude that you can build what you want where you want and that's OK. This is an answer to the original question, of why people might sneer at free-riders (mind you I do not). There are some really irresponsible free-riders out there who's big thing is to ride wherever they like (this is where the "free" in free-rider comes from). Trails are shut down from this type of behavior. And it causes land stewards a LOT of grief to fight these people who build what they want and do not ask. No it is not equally "EVERYONE's" trail to do with as they please.

AND ... there are VERY responsible free-riders out there who build sustainable obstacles in appropriate areas. They avoid the construction of fall line trails which are the major source of erosion. They do it right. I applaud them and challenge the other free-riders to do the same and not try to augment XC courses.

And BTW, there is nothing wrong with team kits. There is something wrong with nasty attitudes and people who are too important to slow down to protect the safety of everyone involved. And some hikers are jerks when they cannot tolerate MTBers, but MTBers who buzz hikers and trail runners are jerks.

Jason222

Move to Eastern Canada. You can build anywhere and only the skateboarders want to pick fights. Horses are made into glue, and shore stunts are looked at as things of beauty.

gattm99

The passing of other riders was mentioned awhile back.

I'm like to ride road and a mountain bike, when I pass a slow moving bike on the road, I usually just swing out and back in front of them. I usually throw out a wave. Its a bad idea to blow by someone and say a greeting at the same time, not very safe.

I ride a 5 inch full suspension bike on the forest and one guy I ride with is about 25 years older then me. He rides hardtail with a 60mm fork and rides both up and down every trail we try. He pretty much kicks my butt at it.

I find it funny that mountain biking has offically split up into so many different disciplines that there is infighting. Back when I first started there was just mountain bikers, and mountain bikers have always been pretty much at the bottom of the barrel of trail use.

I think there is kind of a dual jealousy between the FR crowd and the XC crowd. Most XC riders would like to be able to pull of the stuff that FR do and FR wish they didn't always have to push their bikes up hill and stop to catch their breath.

gattm99

I'd like to go back and touch on the point about free range cattle causing trail errosion. Are you riding with free range cattle? That is seriously strange. Maybe you could start encorporating the free range cattle into your "ripping stunts" I would definitly pay to see a video with free range cattle encorporated into the rippage.

BoSoxYacht

I think this is what bothers many XC riders about the so-called "free-riders" . For many years we fought with hikers , equestrians , and the Sierra Club for trail axcess . Now we (XC riders) see the actions of a few inconsiderate "free-riders" , threatening the future use of these trails by building jumps and cutting new trails . Nearly everytime I kindly ask them to stay on the trails , I'm told to mind my f-ing buisness and normally get flipped off . To make matters worse , there are tons of top-notch DH trails in my local area ( www.bootlegcanyon.org ) . Why can't these few jerks realize how much harm they are doing to the the trails , and the future use of the area . The Sierra Club , hikers , and equestrians don't see us as XC riders or free-riders , they group us all together as Mountain-bikers .

mtnbiker66

Which is my point in the first place.

KonaBrad

Hell yeah thats what im talkin bout

FLBandit

Ah, just like most groups of people, most are decent, some are jerks.

never

Whew...I'm glad I only have a 6" travel bike that I take on some of the XC courses around here! I'd be screwed if I had an extra inch of travel!

DMN

Spot-on.

When I've been walking back home from my latest crash (more often that not ), I've had people on cheap bikes go past with out saying hello, I've had people on cheap bikes stop to ask if I'm ok. At the same time I've had people on top-spec bikes in team kits ride past without a glance and people with top-spec bikes etc stop and help.

People are people, either good or bad. What ever they ride and what ever style they ride.

willtsmith_nwi

Everybody else wishes they had an extra inch. I applaud you for your self confidence ;-)

[Just in case anyone was wondering, this is a light-hearted joke meant to lighten the mood.]

mtnbiker66

Now that was funny.