a friend told me of an article he saw that took a chinese venge replica and put it side to side to compare it with a real venge. he nor I can find the article, but apparently, it revealed that the chinese version used ud weaves and didn't vary the weave direction, so the bike wasn't strong in all directions, and there were other stuff they found.. without seeing it, it's hard to judge whether it's a legitimate article that tries to raise awareness on counterfeits, or slam the non brand bikes from china in order to protect market share of the big brands

does anyone know where to find this article? (or something similar?)

Not all frames are created equal. A look deep inside the carbon in counterfeit bikes - VeloNews.com

Take a look at this recent thread.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...rame-ebay.html

OP, keep in mind the article is about COUNTERFEITS, not no name Chinese frames. Unscrupulous counterfeiters of famous frames are not the same thing as the stand up companies that just happen to sell a product that isn't famous. They may not spend a ton on research and product testing, but they do build a respectable product. While it is generally accepted that no-name Chinese frames are not as good as the world's best brands, many of them are very good indeed. Their main failings are their lack of useful warranty, ease of return, availability as a target for litigation should it be necessary, etc.

Actually you can get house branded frames from Pedal Force (and some others) which provide you many of the assurances like warranty and return capability you would want at similar prices to what you would pay the Hong-Fus and Deng-Fus. Even more so than Hong-Fu and Deng-Fu they are light years better than dealing with a totally unknown seller on ebay. They seem to be based in the US and they present as a western business. If I were going to buy a Chinese frame, that is the kind of place I would deal with.

Just don't paint all Chinese frames with the same brush. The counterfeiters are the worst of the worst. Other folks, not so much.

thanks for the links
yeah, I ordered a couple of dengfu frames for around the same price of what it costs to buy a used venge frame. there's a 2 year warranty, and I'm optimistic that I won't notice a difference in quality.

My friend just bought a "replica" Venge S Works. I'll be sure to let everyone know when it assplodes

it makes me want to find out what sort of design process the dengfu frames go through. I would like to know if they paid any attention to the carbon layup.

Why?

What is the point of buying a counterfeit high end frame when it is not built like a high end frame? Bling points from the unknowing?

Yes. He knows exactly what he bought and he said he wants people he rides with to think he's riding a $10k bike. To each their own. Personally, I would rather the unbranded frame from a legitimate source but that's me

I think those folks know what they are doing and do it for some big names. They just may need to keep their non-branded stuff a couple of technology generations behind the brand name stuff they build in order to keep peace with their biggest customers.

Add to that is unknown on ride quality unless you know somebody with that frame or have seen some reviews. Some people on another forum posted about frames being exceptionally stiff or surprisingly compliant for example.

Is there anything preventing a Chinese manufacturer from duplicating the exact same frame geometry of an existing product but leaving it generic (i.e. unlabeled)?

Also, is the form of double butting etc patented?

What exactly about a frame can be patented.

A few posts upthread referred to the high R&D costs but I've never seen a bike frame with "patent pending" on them which refers to the geometry.

Perhaps that is because a patent isn't always the best way to protect one's intellectual property.

I think dengfu is actually totally separate from the taiwanese manufacturers, who are the ones who make frames for 90% of the big brands. I'm told by the supplier that the fm098 that I bought is chinese, not taiwanese. so they're probably not the same guys who make trek, specialized, giant, cannondale, etc. it makes me want to question it, but I've also read good reviews on the fm098 to know that it's a good frame.

not sure if these company patents extend to the international level. in case it doesn't, the molds that are used to make the frames belong to the companies, not the manufacturers. I don't think it's legal for them to use the exact same mold to open up a business on the side in order to sell it at a smaller margin. it's bad business and creates distrust, so I doubt that's how it's done. however, I think they can totally make slightly altered molds and make almost the same products, which I think is what they're doing.

Patent Pending, of course, means that the item is not patented yet... but the manufacture is hoping the patent office will eventually get around to issuing a patent sometime in the future.

My bike is designated with an ® which would tend to prohibit faking the name or symbols, but not necessarily the geometry/fabrication.

As far as quality, one should assume that most of the China Direct E-Bay specials are made with price cutting as the primary objective.

There are, however, several companies with an internet presence beyond E-Bay, who seem to have long-term business goals which might be helped by at least attempting to provide quality products to the customers.

You're right and you're wrong. Yes we are talking about China, not Taiwan. But some big brands are made in China, not Taiwan...I think. Not the ones you listed, but some. Secondly Deng-Fu and Hong-Fu aren't manufacturers either. They are just another layer of reseller in the nearly impossible to understand Chinese market. Reputedly their manufacturing source(s) are reliable.

Who owns what gets complicated.

Consider Cars....

One might be tempted to say that all German cars are Volkswagens... and all Italian cars are Fiats. Which is at least partially true as I think VW and Porsche have merged, and Fiat has swallowed Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo (Oh, Lamborghini is apparently VW).

In the bike world, of course, not all Italian bikes are Colnagos. One has Bianchi, Atala, Cinelli, De Rosa, Pinarello, and several others.

No doubt China, one of the biggest countries in the world has multiple different manufactures. Perhaps sharing things like carbon manufactures, but diverging in production. There may be benefits of common manufacturing techniques in the country.

In the tool world, there certainly are differences between big brands like DeWalt, and those second tier companies like Harbor Freight who seem to count more on quantity than quality.

Most of those Italian bikes are made in China or Taiwan with the rest. But more and more in China since Taiwan is getting to expensive.

On the new bikes, yes. Although some of it is due to Bianchi USA licensing JUNK.... while the Italian Bianchi still produced nice bikes.

On the Classic/Vintage bikes, they were mostly, if not all made in Italy with the exception of Bianchi USA.

Some companies may have farmed out brazing, while others would have remained independent.