rpenmanparker 

I would like to explore the question of provenance of this bike frame. Someone drew my attention today to its similarity to the Cervelo R5. Upon close inspection it is a dead ringer. The weight is right too. RMS13 has already pointed out that all the fittings are authentic Cervelo stuff. So what is the explanation? If it were a knock off, wouldn't it be painted to fool the buyer into thinking it were really a Cervelo? Why go to all that trouble and not claim the brand name?

Here's what I think. One of two things going on. Either the Workswell frames are R5s that are very slightly out of spec. Maybe a few frams heavy, or the BB shell isn't perfect or something else like that. So they sell the "second" unbranded.

Alternatively the Chinese factory making real R5s needs to train workers hands on with experienced supervision, but until they are certified, their work product can't carry the Cervelo brand. Either way this would be very good news. In either case, every frame would be subjected to rigorous QC and QA. In the former case the QC/QA would be how the slight imperfection was detected. In the latter case the trainees' work would have to be examined to determine the training progress.

Maybe I am FOS, but that's my story and I am sticking to it. For a 90% discount on the real deal, I'd be happy either way.

canamdad

I quite like the "adventure" in building up a bike like this. I'm curious about the tire clearance on the Workswell frame that two of you have. I know that rim width has some bearing as does tire manufacturer on this but what width are you using and how large do you think would be max? Thanks and enjoy your rides!

jtaylor996

What usually happens in this case is either:

1. Dude quit chinese cervelo factory and took the plans/CAD files with him and just duped the molds at a rival/new factory in china.

2. Cervelo fired the chinese factory that was making frames, and now that factory still make them anyways.

Same thing happens all the time in my other hobbies where chinese production has taken over. In neither case is the original mfgr ever involved with the clones, and there is zero guarantee of any of the QA/QC practices that went into what you're buying. The only way to know the QA/QC going on (or of any competent layup going on) is to tour the factory yourself (and even then... what comes off the boat may not be the same).

Aka_ricerocket

If I would guess, the company probably bought a few cervelo bikes and made their own molds from them. I don't think Cervelo as a company would sell off their old molds just in case another company would pick them up.

Any company can copy a bike from another, but if the carbon layup isn't the same then it won't have the same ride characteristics as the real deal. My own personal Cervelo r5 frameset came out under 1000g with the fork. So i'm assuming your bike would be using a different carbon or more of it to make it "Stiff".

On a side note. I was going to purchase a China knock off, to have as my daily rider, but got a sweet deal on a trek instead.

heres a little write up about the Cervelo Bike and Carbon info, Bike radar did a few years back,

First look: Cervelo's ultralight R5ca frame - BikeRadar

Fly2High

Anyone who has done composite work can just buy a bike and make molds from that. As for the layup, that can be determined by destructive testing/investigation.

Something else to think of is that it is possible that Cervelo offered the job to several factories and each had to produce a working unit for comparison much like the military does with the Joint Strike fighter jet. In the end only one gets the contract. Not sure what happens with the other. It might be part of bidding to own the molds so if not selected, they can do what they want.

Or they just 'stole' them. They took measurements off an actual Cervelo and cut their own mold.

rpenmanparker 

I like my explanations better. Jus' sayin'.

I <3 Robots

Lol...this is probably the likeliest scenario.

I have a 29r from Workswell...and it's pretty much a dead ringer for a Specialized Stumpjumper...with the exception of the rear dropouts and cable entry/exit points. The dropouts on the WW is convertible between 135 and 142 axles.

WW does "OEM" stuff too...at least according to their website.

rpenmanparker 

To me the puzzle is why use the BBright bottom bracket and bizarre 1 3/8" head tube bottom bearing if you have no "invented here" emotional investment in it. It is just a negative for selling the bike to the general public. Yet that is the only way this frame is offered. Many of the other ones from Hong-Fu and Deng-Fu are offered with either BB30 or BSA bottom brackets. Why would this frame preserve the BBright version as their only offering. Just makes no sense to me unless the frames were really being made for Cervelo or something similar.

rpenmanparker 

Wow! That's lighter than I thought. Are you on a size 48 or 51. Did you weigh the fork after cutting it?

2manybikes

You'll probably like it more over time. Well done, very nice bike. I built some of my bikes. It's nice to have it exactly the way you like it. But, for me I don't want to even leave one locked up just to into a store for a minute.

On a bumpy stiff bike I only put 100 psi in the tires on a long ride.

Aka_ricerocket

I ride a 51cm, my fork weight was under 300g uncut. I want to say 270g

I <3 Robots

It's possible that it's just plain easier to do a straight copy. Those headset parts costs next to nothing for them to get. Bearings are bearings. They are probably used in all kinds of machinery. It's not proprietary to the frame.

All anybody can really do is speculate.

When I went to Interbike a few weeks back There is a Taiwan and China manufacturers section. I asked some simple questions about bike geometry...and most of them could not give me a straight answer. I asked them how much travel they based their all mountain frames on...pretty much all of them answered 100 or 120mm. I was looking for a frame that gave me a 66/67 HTA with a 150mm fork. AM frames usually start at 150mm of travel. On the flip side...they can talk all day about the construction. So I pretty much asked who's geometry do they base their mountain frames on...and one said Scott and BMC.

rpenmanparker 

Yeah, that smaller size would do it. The advertised weights are based on the 56 cm. So nice looking.

rpenmanparker 

I'm riding 25 mm tubulars at 77/90 psi.

rpenmanparker 

I'm riding 20 mm wide tubular rims with 25 mm tires on them. I think there is just enough room for one size up on each. Hitting the underside of the fork crown appear to be the most likely problem. Looks like about 7 mm clearance right now. Of course my tires aren't pumped up high. Only 75 psi in front.

2manybikes

Can't do better than that.

Lazyass

That has to be one of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever read in Bike Forums. I mean you can't be serious. Here's a serious suggestion. Some scam artist in China hacked the computers at Cervelo and got all their files. Then they invested a few thousand dollars to start pumping out cheap ass fake R5's, send them out to multiple distributors in China and made their money back in a couple of weeks. "Workswell", DH Gate, Ali Baba, King Fu Hong Ching, they're all selling the same thing as you got. Most likely made in the same building by kids. I guess if you have to choose one, go with the place with the nicest set up website. If you like you're bike I'm happy for you. But to have the thought that your frame may have some type of legitimate connection to Cervelo is just........ mind boggling.



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rpenmanparker 

Hey, just having a little fun here. Sure, I thought that might be possible. I hadn't seen the same stuff branded Cervelo, which blows my idea all to hell. No problem. I liked the frame before I hatched that stupid idea. No reason I shouldn't like it afterwards too.

BTW, thanks for the heads up. Much appreciated.

ShortLegCyclist

For a more compliant ride, could you switch out to 650b wheels and run 30 or 32 mm Compass tires on them?

You'd need to switch out to long reach brakes too.

I did this on a disc brake road bike and it transformed the ride from stiff and noncompliant to rolls comfortably over just about anything with no appreciable loss of speed. It's actually faster with the 650b setup over rough pavement since I don't have to worry about hitting rough spots.

Of course, I started with a Motobecane frame that accepts 42 mm tires so I had a lot more room to work with and am using Grand Bois Hetres right now rather than the stock 700x25c that came with the original bike. Not at all sure that 30 or 32 mm tires would make as dramatic a difference as going from 700x25c to 650x42b did for me.

Lazyass

China makes fake Land Rovers for god's sake. Fake everything under the sun. A couple of years ago the local government in one of their cities tried to crackdown on fake goods. 90% of the businesses closed down so they gave that up. They hack the computer files of legitimate businesses, make cheap knockoffs, sell them for a fraction of the price and make a killing. I read an article about a business who makes fake Apple computers. They actually have a fake chain of Apple stores, with employees wearing fake Apple t-shirts, logo and all.

The fact we all buy products made in China because we pretty much have no choice is one thing. But to purposely buy what is known to be a complete fake that hurts legitimate businesses is just not cool and not comparable. It's killing us, man. China is scamming the world and we're letting it happen.

rms13

Well actually all of the companies that are getting their products bootlegged in China are letting it happen because they are greedy and choose to outsource production to the lowest bidder. If they chose to manufacture in the USA or someplace else with better controls they MIGHT have a better chance at securing their products. But I suspect that they make so much more profit manufacturing in China that it offsets any losses they get from counterfeiting. I am not condoning counterfeiting but these are not benevolent organizations trying to make the world a better place. And also whether or not they produce in China has nothing to do with them getting hacked. It's the worldwide web. Someone in China, Korea, Russia or Iran could hack your computer in your house right now if you had anything of value to them. Hackers in Russia hacked Target's credit card data by hacking Target's outsourced HVAC vendor, uploading malicious code to the HVAC systems in every store which then infected the credit card scanners at the registers. And they did all that without leaving their homes in Russia all because someone at Target doesn't know how to segment their network properly. It's a brave new world and where any one of us buys are bikes from is the least of the problems

Lazyass

Cervelo outsources their production to the lowest bidder?

I <3 Robots

I don't think that some random person in China can spend a few thousand and start making bootleg frames. It's more like tens of thousands. Plus the other equipment and people power to "make" the frames.

A lot of the companies have made bikes for OEM companies, then marketed under whomever contracted them to make the frames. Some just decided to make frames on their own.

Nobody knows how these frames are put together. Until you do...you can only guess.

Big bike companies will always look for the best price. If they can't get it, they'll move on.

Shadow optic | the manufacturing partner paradox |

“Cannondale [CiQ: a previous client] and Specialized always want a cheaper price.” said AIM’s representative. “They don’t want to move back to Taiwan (with AIM) but the future will make it all the same. We cannot offer the same price from (our Taiwanese facility), so they need to find another supplier.”

Who's t say that once the big bike manufacturers walk away...these OEM companies start making their own bikes...or blank bikes with what they've learned?

link0

Or more likely, they just worked off the general design and geometry of the R5 and came up with their own layup. This is what most chinese factories do for generic branded and/or knockoff branded goods.

rms13

Yes...to China. Probably cheaper than Quebec, Taiwan, Italy, Mexico, Japan, USA right?