redfooj

The more plausible explanation being that bikes dont propel themselves and thus dont have too much capacity to whelm the rider

I recently undertook a rebuild of an oft-neglected secondary bike. My primary ride is a personal favorite - italian lugged steel with period groupset.

The secondary bike was splashed with new components top to bottom. New set of carbon wheels, too. Frame wasnt 500$ chinese clone, it was a 3000$ 'handmade in california' carbon piece. Did this virtually new bike, with all advantages on paper to the steel one, provide a thrilling ride? No, it still rode like a bike. Albeit a lighter one when i carry it up stairs.

(Maybe someone with 400W FTP can ascertain the riding differences better than I...)

Stucky

I felt the same way when I had a Venge. Decent bike; comfy to ride, etc- but it didn't do anything that the old Klein couldn't- and I actually liked the way the Klein rode better.

calimtb

More great posts from redfooj and stucky in an already great thread. Add some of rpen's impressions along with the thread comparing a high zoot cannondale with a bikesdirect bike and we start to get a pretty clear picture.

A bike is a bike.

That's it.

I've been reading Grant Petersen's Just Ride and he cites a study which concluded that a 12 pound reduction equals a 1 mph increase in overall speed.

To be honest, I've found that I can get at least 1 mph of free speed, if not more, just by swapping out tires. This is at most, a $100 investment.

Just ride, indeed.

Aka_ricerocket

I was Going to buy a chinese copy of my Cervelo project california, to ride as my daily, but at that price point after being built id rather buy a used Brand name one that someone else loss money on.

I can honestly tell you that after owning a Trek Madone 5.9 then going to my Cervelo r5ca, the rear power transfer is a huge difference. every pedal stroke is solid and lurches my bike forward... It could be just the crankset and BB combo, but i'm pretty sure it has to do with how the carbon is lay'd up, and type of carbon used.

Because Cervelo has put so much into R&D into their bikes, they are one of the most copied road bikes on the planet. They were well ahead of their time when the R5ca was developed, and still to this day it stands as one of the lightest Frames in the world. at 670g

I'll be more than happy to give a china copy a ride and compare it to the real deal.

rpenmanparker 

Yes, but what about AFTER you have swapped the tires? The quest starts all over again. Just like after you have lost your own body weight. The bike is still waiting there for you to lighten IT.

rpenmanparker 

Or put another way: A bike isn't supposed to whelm the rider. A rider should whelm the bike.

But seriously, I do love the new bike. But its performance is nothing special to me. All my bike have been deemed great when I finish building them. It is what I expect. Why would I be overwhelmed? This one gives me stiffness I don't need in a trade for comfort I highly value. Not to an extent that I find unattractive. Not at all. But the compromise is still there.

Lazyass

I would like to publicly apologize to Robert for my harsh comments. Putting down a man's bike is like putting down his girl and I shouldn't do that. I hope the bike lasts 100,000 miles and gives you great enjoyment.

rpenmanparker 

Honestly I accepted your comments as obvious and sensible criticisms. No harm, no foul. Clearly there are compromises being made in a project like this. Distance to the supplier, lack of true provenance of the frame, lack of QC/QA guarantees, lack of lifetime warranty with a possibility of actually being implemented, the chance of a catastrophic failure, on and on. I get the criticism. But none of those potential issues rises to much importance (to me) when viewed through the lens of a hobby project, not just a bike to ride. Also I don't care about keeping a bike forever like some folks. I am happy to build a bike, ride it a while, sell it and move on to another. So things that would bother some folks, don't matter to me. I guess the best way to say it is "different strokes for different folks"

While unnecessary, your apology is much appreciated.

redfooj

step away from the bike

calimtb

It seems like you and rpen agree already. Both of you have weighed the frames (the weights are identical for frame/fork I believe), and agree that the frames are exceptionally stiff, as per it's design and are great at power transfer.

Can either of you quantify this power transfer difference? As in average speed or faster times for rides? Just curious.

calimtb

Then I refer back to all of the threads and posts from bikeforum members who note that a heavier, less expensive bike is faster. :-)

Seriously, I'm seeing quite a few posts like this. In your case, as an owner of a 12 lb. bike, it seems you would prefer a more comfortable bike with less stiffness. In the hi-ten thread, someone says they like their hi ten bike more than a far lighter cromoly bike. And then there is the bikesdirect vs. $4K cannondale comparison, where the $400 bikesdirect bike is faster.

There are just too many examples of this to ignore.

My own bike, I preferred to a "racing bike" which was easily a lb or two lighter at the same price point. I found the endurance geometry not only more comfortable but far better for power transfer.

I'm still tempted to buy lighter wheels, but am skeptical of performance gains after reading these various threads.

I can state for a fact that I saw a huge performance gain when swapping out tires from stock to high performance michelins.

rms13

I second that. I have built 6 bikes in the past 5 years and currently own 2. Also bought 3 others already built that I no longer own. Do I have a bike problem? My wife would say yes. But I also enjoy building and projects in general as much as I enjoy riding. I also enjoy riding different bikes.

rms13

If your in LA you can ride mine

rpenmanparker 

Okay, but don't forget that the weight reduction is one aspect if the new bike I really do appreciate. If it were just a little softer riding, it would be close to perfect.

I <3 Robots

Lol...no bike I've ever ridden really "blew me away". With the exception of my 1st real road bike...which was a Cannondale Six 13. That was my very first real road bike. I could not believe how fast it accelerated compared to my mountain bike. Since the Six 13, I've owned a System Six, , Franco Balcom, and now my Cervelo S2. I worked at a bike shop for two years and demo'd lots of bikes...none really blew me away. I was able to feel differences in geometry, ride, and performance...but none were game changers for me. I think the biggest single "performance" difference I was able to notice was riding tubulars for the first time. Going from my Easton tubs to ZIPP 404 tubs wasn't that big a deal. I think flex is 90% in your head. Lol...I read a funny post from a RBR member that if you were to add up all the performance gains claimed from Specialized over the years...you'd be done before the race even started.

rpenmanparker 

Since I don't care about it, I wouldn't even try.

dksix

Where does the other $4500 of cost go from a real R5 frame? This WorksWell frame cost $450 shipped (I think that's what's reported) and the MSRP for an R5 is $5000, what is that $4500 buying?

I don't know the OP but in just reading here on the forum it's apparent he's no starry eyed fool and he's satisfied with the $450 frame. The only difference for certain is the price, everything else that can be actually compared seems to be the same (geometry, weight, cosmetic quality, etc). If the 2 frames are the same dimensionally outside and weigh the same it's reasonable to think they are the same on the inside.

rpenmanparker 

People say R&D, advertising, liability protection and so on. And of course, middle man profits. But the sum of all that stuff should only be a fraction of the manufacturing cost, not several multiples of it. If the authentic frame cost say $1500, I would say, "Fair enough."

Aka_ricerocket

the weights are actually a bit different. my frame weight is 670g with a fork weight of 270, so frame set weight is under 1000g i believe his weight was closer to the 1300g mark thats pretty close to a 3/4 lbs difference in weight.




thats the wieght of the finished bike with aluminum wheels minus the seat and seat post. but with pedals installed.

current bike weight with 50mm carbon clinchers (1500g) is 13.15 lbs

rms13

I road my identical frame a couple of days this week and payed special attention to where and how it's stiff and compliant. My answer is it's just stiff. Stiff everywhere. I stand up and hammer up a hill and I can't feel any give whatsoever. When I'm cruising around in the saddle I do feel the road up through the saddle. It's not necessarily uncomfortable and certainly not buzzy but I can feel any road imperfection.

69chevy

You have to consider sales numbers.

If "C" spent $100,000 (just a number to explain) on developing, advertising, and tooling.. They need to sell 100 frames at a $1000 profit to break even.

Then they need to sell 50 more frames at $1,000 every year for every employee to make payroll.

Blah, blah.

Big companies have huge expenses, people with little to no overhead do not.

Stucky

Back in the 80's, Ford spent so much on advertising the Escort, that it was the number-one selling car...but Ford didn't make a profit on them- just broke even. Advertising is expensive- 'specially when you get into sponsoring pro racing teams and the like. I want the best deal possible; I don't want to have to pay for race sponsorship when I'm purchasing a bike.

calimtb

I thought it was the taurus which was the domestic car sales leader back then. And only because they sold so many to rental fleets. Also, the prices of ******* and tauruses were never astronomical, just average or even a bit below for their class after dealer discounts. List prices were average for their class.

As far as actual vehicle sales, the Ford F150 was far more popular than even the class leading accord and camry, as well as escort and taurus.

calimtb

Whether it's aka or anyone else, I hope someone or even a few people, get a chance to ride both a cervelo and it's (apparent) clone side by side. Should make for a rather interesting comparison.

patrickgm60

That's all we roadies ask for from a bike, after all, isn't it?