[QUOTE=rpenmanparker;19247699]
The right bike is about more than welding or applying cf layups.
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Not uncommon.

Because frames are no longer a frontier AND I don't know builders that know much about fit.
I'm into customer hand made stuff. I spent some time with (with torch) and got a custom frame built by Gary Hale who trained Dwan Shepard (Co-Motion). Then Dwan built his 1st tandem for me pre-CoMotion and another Co-Motion later. Gary's bikes, while stronger and more expertly made didn't ride as well as the Italian "prison bikes". They were called that as they were reported to be made by prisoners in Italy. There is something to be said for brand and time and owning the design and trouble shooting it.
Single frames are now mature. Pretty much so are rims. Someone making a big deal about all the customer things they do is selling attention. Pros do and have ridden off-the-shelf stock bikes for years now (also UCI rules), so it is hard to improve on that if you are a normal shaped person.

But when it comes to other stuff there is still a lot of innovation going on. Francois (FMB) makes me tires and I think they are better than mainstream tires. Taiwan is at the front of that. Harry Fang - RECON, Ken Chang - KCNC is hand crafting. Those are not USA brands, but they are innovative people doing innovative things. I like supporting them.

[QUOTE=rpenmanparker;19247699]
This is worth pursuing one more post.


So instead of 'a certain factory worker' (I have nothing against factories or workers having lived in those shoes) would you extend that same level of confidence to all factory workers that may be involved in building the frame & assembling your bike?


Having been a supervisor on an assembly line (silicon/boards/subsystems each in SE Asia), I can promise you manufacturing consistency from hourly employees on a 'labor intensive product' is QA's major headache on a day-to-day basis. Bigger process problems or materials issues come up periodically as well, but day to day consistency is not easy in a volume oriented environment. Facts is facts.


Crap local framebuilders only build a few before they go out of business.
Thanks.
Bye

[QUOTE=Wildwood;19247567]


I deeply resent your making me reconsider my opinion of you and your posts. I will Not forgive.

Further ... there is no guarantee that every craftsman will always do a great job, or redo the job if s/he messes up ... or even notices. have dealt with my share of craftsmen.

For a long time poor quality control in Italian supercars was considered a quirky sign of hand-crafting---so if the carpet didn't fit or the glovebox handle fell off, you were supposed to feel special.

If a person can develop a relationship with a local craftsperson, and likes what that person builds, and moreover can Afford what that person builds ... have at it. As others have noted, there is no guarantee that that craftsperson is going to build something awesome---just fairly unique. You might find your mass-produced Giant rides better than you handcrafted, limited-reserve, numbered series boutique bike ... or not.

Personally I am not in that realm where I can afford or need or likely would really appreciate a really fine hand-crafted bike ... and also, as I age and my body and riding habits constantly change, it would be a bear to pick one single geometry which would last a lifetime. For me it makes a lot more sense to pay $500 for a cheap Chinese carbon fiber frame ... and if in ten years I find I cannot raise the bars high enough or reach down low enough, they make an endurance-geometry frame too.

I like the idea of supporting local craftspersons ... but it can become another fetish. To me what really matters is how I feel when I ride the bike, and if I like riding the bike I could not care less if it was mass-produced, custom-tailored, a one-off sized just for me, or a rebuild frame I just happened to have in my garage for 30 years.

If I were vain enough I could get some weird custom-name decal and slap it on the downtube and tell people it is a one-off custom ... but I am not, so I am fine with people knowing I ride a Cannondale or a Dawes or a Raleigh or a Workswell,

Really no one cares ... if anyone sees me riding their only thought will be "Why isn't there a law about people that fat wearing spandex?"

One of the things that I do besides riding bikes is play classical music. This thread touches on some very familiar refrains that I often encounter in other fora centered on musical matters--craft vs. "factory" and so forth. In fact, I've often used the same word--"fetish"--to describe the phenomenon of just how much importance many of us attach to the supposed superiority of a personal craft, which thereby enables it to exact, in some instances, many thousands of dollars more for an instrument than could be supported by a no less fine an instrument, but one deemed more humble (and less desirable) for the fact that more than one had his or her hand in its creation.

@Maelochs good reply above .

I never 'put down' any bike or where it's made. Not in this thread, nor ever - that I remember.
So many people come to this Forum and ask 'what bike to buy?' I seldom reply, but have offered advice to see a local builder more than once. It always draws the Flames of scorn; and Screams of elistist and enemy of Asian workers. Then I see such poor fitting bikes that have been sold by shops (of all kinds) = jacked up stems/spacers/seatposts/etc. My advice seems only logical for so many. YMMV

Sorry you or others claim a bad experience with a local builder. When I had my last fitting, the builder put me on a stationary trainer with my best bike. He took a few measurements. Then told me to warm up and he would be back in a few minutes. He passed by 10 minutes later and asked me to up the pace. 5 minutes later = up the pace again with mild out of saddle exertions. Then back to a moderate pace. After 40 min on the trainer he took measurements again. As a result, I ride shorter cranks (attempt to spin better) and went back to narrow (38cm) bars, a slightly longer stem to compensate for short/shallow bars, since I round my shoulders when i tire and rode the hoods rather than transitioning to the drops. He also built a frame to meet my requests.

OP, no FACTORY is going to sell you ONE frame. Stuff is made to order. Order 50 or 100 or so and you're good to go.

The "factories" on the interwebs selling single frames are Trading Companies, not factories. In fact, you listed several in your search results.

If you truly see 'so many' on ill-fitting bikes, the logical conclusion is either that a. shops are fitting people on the wrong type of bike or b. people are insisting on buying the wrong type of bike. The majority of us aren't sizing freaks that require a custom frame to achieve standard-looking proportions. And with so many categories of bikes available to accommodate every type of cycling, there's simply no reason to buy a race bike and run 50mm of spacers (and I doubt there ever was a reason, other than stubbornness on the part of the buyer).

Other than the 'frame to meet [your] requests,' all of the above is doable on any bike. Anyone who has cycled for years is very likely to be making some component change on a new bike, or building up a bare frame, to get things just how they like. Your minor changes (other than perhaps the frame, but it is unlikely you have anything extreme there in regards to geometry, as most don't) can be made on any bike.

I have some pretty quirky preferences these days so I am building up a bare Hongfu () frame for my next bike. There's no off-the-shelf bike that even comes close to what I want any more so the decision to build is easy. However, for the frame, the standard 50cm Hongfu offering is a perfect fit for me.

I totally agree with everything you said.
No problema here with Hongfu.
Many Forum members are experienced cyclists who need no advice. They know their measurements.
Yes, an informed person can find exactly what they need off the shelf, given normal body measurements.
You can live an entire life of happy cycling and never talk to the people who build bikes for a living.

However:
Some posters want advice and a framebuilder is a good place to start, if you are truly serious and gonna drop some $$$.
I have many many times walked into a place that builds frames and said, "I'm gonna be buying a bike in the future and here's my question(s)." WOW what new things a person can learn.
edit: Unless you are already a master builder. Then my comments are irrelevant to you (maybe).
Please - a call out to: E-Richie, C Strong, C Calfee, B Steelman, Della Santa, S White, j Tallerico, Co-Motion Cooperative, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc
Respond that you cannot help resolve people's cycling questions and needs better than a large factory (wherever it may be).

[QUOTE=Wildwood;19247765]Not so fast. You are totally disregarding a few important facts. One is that your local frame builder only has one material and one philosophy to share with you. If you want what he has, then all is good. If you don't, then it is just talk.

Second, you are completely ignoring statistical quality control and assurance which have revolutionized manufacturing worldwide. You mention QA, but not from the point of view of giving the customer what he expects, rather to show how unreliable the labor force it. But it doesn't work that way. Modern statistical controls don't just find the bad products; they constantly improve the process.

You don't worry about the factory worker(s) building your automobile and go instead to a local car maker turning out one custom built auto a month. It is totally the same with bike frames. They are mass produced, and these days according to strict quality control and assurance standards and methods.

Then there is the question of proven product characteristics. A custom builder may have built the bike your have ordered once before or maybe a few times. Maybe they have come out like he wanted them to, or maybe he is still fine tuning that particular size and design. One thing is for sure: he has not built a 100 reps of that size and design to prove it out and perfect it. The factory, on the other hand, has researched every item in their line and proved the characteristics of each design embodiment. Yes, even in China.

The horror of the broken quotes in this thread. Ugh.