ReneV

The absorption numbers are stated as being for carbs, only.

Doge

To the OP - tell us about the ride.

To the topic of fat...
Note the pace - 13-15. This is not a race. There are a few stops. There appears to be plenty of water - and stopping. Storage is an issue too, so what to carry. This will be a 7-8 hour event. The OP is asking if he/she should take more and want to stop as little as possible.

Too late now, but my answer is:
Stay off carbs and stimulants at the start of the ride. A regular breakfast volume minus carbs is good. That means if you eat 2 eggs and toast - east 3-4 eggs. Then I'd replace 2 of those energy gels with nut butter, and replace those protein bars with nut butter. I have no idea what is in the protein bars, likely sugar, soy etc.
Do the ride starting low carb. Eat a packet of nut butter 2 hours in then every hour. Have an electrolyte in two bottles water in the other. Last 30 miles use a caffeine gel. Last hour use the 2nd gel. Use water.

Fat base will sustain and take less calculation/feeding and timing than carbs. Chances of running out of energy are lower than if you swapped that order. It is simple and more calorie dense.

Doge

Yes - good point. I often hear that as a total number. So what do you think the total number is? 700kcal /hour?

But the point made in the article says to me we are discussing a detail different than the OP's:
However, during intense exercise (and thus most competitive situations)
carbohydrate is the critical fuel and, in particular, muscle
glycogen has been linked to exercise performance [2,3].

Stratocaster

I suspect he'll come back and tell us that eating/fueling wasn't an issue...but it sure got uncomfortable sitting on a bike seat for that long.

Stratocaster

By the way, great discussion about nutrition for cyclists. This discussion was simple enough that even I could understand it somewhat (unlike other discussions that were far over my head).

I can actually see all points of view (even Dr. Isotop's).


I have a question:
I know that nut butters have been mentioned. - But this there anything wrong, or beneficial, or detrimental, or worthwhile with regular old peanut butter (and jelly...or not) for a mid-ride snack?
I know it has a lot of fat, protein, and carbs...not sure if the ratio is ideal.

What are your thoughts on peanut butter? (and or jelly on a piece of wheat or rye bread)?

Carbonfiberboy 

100 miles is a relatively short ride in the long-distance panoply. Nonetheless, for a rider who hasn't ridden a lot of long distance, it's a long way. So IMO it's worth applying the principles of long distance riding. They are: limit stops, maintain a steady all-day pace, eat the food you brought on the bike, stop only for water refills as necessary. Keep moving. There is no slower pace than stopped. The most important food you'll eat on the ride will be the food you eat in the first 3 hours. Those 3 hours will set the tone for the day.

If one watches grand tour videos or TV, one notices that when the riders eat, they just reach into their jersey pocket and never unwrap anything. That's the quickest and safest and the most likely way to make sure you get enough to eat.

No, don't eat fat or much protein either. Get your protein after the ride. It's only 100 miles and you aren't going to need protein to prevent muscle loss over that distance. Fat and protein slow digestion and cause stomach upsets, especially when climbing or in hot conditions. Safest just to avoid them and certainly no harm in doing so. There's no rational argument for it. Eat carbs.

The very simplest and probably best thing is to bring 6 Clif bars. Take 2 or 3 of them, unwrap them, break them into quarters, and put them in your dominant hand jersey pocket. Eat 1 quarter about every 15 minutes starting 15 minutes after the start. If your stomach tells you to, skip a feeding or two and increase your water. Always obey your stomach.

I wouldn't take salt tablets. Too much salt all at once can make you barf, which is the worst possible thing. Instead of salt tablets, take NUUN or Endurolytes. I never take more than 100mg sodium/hour, usually less. You don't need to replace salt during the ride, not at all.

Take some ibuprofen, just in case. Stand every 10 minutes, by the clock. As people get tired, let the strongest rider pull, no egoizing.

woodcraft

Uh,, jersey pocket?

Getting the shell off while riding is about the same as eating a banana.

TGT1

If it's tomorrow it's too late to overthink this. Tomorrow is not the time to experiment with new foods. Go with what you know agrees with you and skip the protein bars. You need carbs!

Once on a Grand Canyon Rim to Rim trip my buddy who could usually out hike me in spades, bonked on the way out. (never happened before in 10 or more years of back country ventures) He sat down and got a "protein bar" I took it away form him and gave him a box of raisins. That had him going again in about ten minutes.

My go to long distance food now is Greek rice balls. (rice ball with Kalmata olive center)

Overcook short grain Sushi rice and after it's cool put something salty that you like in the middle of about a golf ball size lump and compress with Saran Wrap to a firm ball.

When you stop dump a takeout soy sauce packet on it.

Plenty of electrolytes and long chain carbs that don't give you the sugar high/crash

PB&Js.

Use the PB like caulking and create a ring around the perimeter of the bread. Fill the center with the jam and seal against the PB on the edges so it won't leak out. (more of a lunch thing, not easy to eat on the road)

Stratocaster

Thanks for the tip. Nutritionally, is PB&J a decent mid-ride snack?

TGT1

You don't need "nutrition" during a ride, you just need fuel. Simple sugars are gasoline, longer chain starches, diesel fuel.
The "nutrition" should come after the ride.

Jams and jellies are essentially fruit flavored simple sugars. The bread, longer chain carbs and plenty of sodium. The PB protein and fat is doing you no good during the ride. It's just there for caulking and flavor.

Doge

Please note - I advocate both diet types, but it depends on the event.
As the above poster said - this is fuel, not nutrition. But selecting diesel or gas depends on what you want to do. The 24 hours of LeMons - diesel does well, F1 - not so much.

This is per OP 13-15 mph average (on a road bike on roads).

More links:
"Fat is the muscles' primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate, which is the muscles' primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise, is stored only in small amounts in the body. Consequently, carbohydrate fuel depletion is a major cause of fatigue during prolonged exercise at higher intensities, such as triathlons."
Dietary Fat and Endurance Athletes | ACTIVE

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/f...ance-athletes/

This is different - it is fat adapting, but similar principles.
High-Fat Diets for Endurance | Runner's World

Maelochs

"Consequently, carbohydrate fuel depletion is a major cause of fatigue during prolonged exercise at higher intensities, such as triathlons." Basically, they didn't eat right before the race and didn't eat right during the race.

Anyway ... if the guy can do 50 miles, 100 will be a little tougher but not impossible.

However, he could bonk. None of us know what he plans to eat before hand.

For that matter, none of us know what he normally eats.

I know I don't like fats while exercising. If I take a 30-minute break I can do PB sandwiches, but basically I don't do fat while are right before exercise. I don't do protein because I don't Need protein---I need fuel. Burning protein as fuel is wasteful.

The some guy like Doge eats raw better his whole ride. Whatever.

In General, I would go with Heathcliff's plan .... if I were giving advice cold to a knew distance rider. I would recommend half a Powerbar or Cliff bar every 15-30 minutes. Lots of water, and I would recommend 1 bottle of dilute energy drink (salt/sugar/water) and one of water in the racks at all times. (Bring powdered Gatorade mix.)

This should Work for anybody. Might not be optimized for this particular person, but should at least Work for anybody.

This isn't a triathlon. That example is ridiculous. The OP is planning to do a slow/medium endurance ride. If he does happen to burn all his ingested carbs ... And he follows this plan .... he should have plenty of glycogen and fat reserves to get him there anyway.

The worst part would likely be the last 15 miles, and that depends mostly on his attitude. Fatigue will build up (twice his normal distance) but if he can keep thinking how good he feels and how little is left, and how far he has come .... he might sail through smiling.

What I would want to avoid, were I he, would be bonking on the last leg of the ride. I might bring a small bag of M&Ms and raisins for emergencies .... the sugar won't last but a bag of M&Ms always improves the attitude (oxytocin) and the raisins are like a gel shot in natural form. Then eat the half-Powerbar and ride slow for a little while.

And likely, the guy could just get out and ride it. The point is to make it as pleasant an experience as possible, and to avoid worst-case scenarios.

Probably the guy will pack really carefully then leave it all at home and not notice until he has gotten to the ride site and will do the while ride on two Powerbars and some raisins he got from fellow riders.

PepeM

If it works, it works, but eating every fifteen minutes sounds like a massive pain in the arse.

Stratocaster

By "nutritionally" I meant the breakdown for a bike ride - as you have explained. Thank you.
But someone mentioned nut butter. Are you saying that this does no good as well? ( I really don't know if nut butter is much different than peanut butter...but I assume they can't be that different).

And not to hijack this thread (it is an interesting topic - and it will keep the OP's thread on the first page ) -
For a 50 mile - fairly intense ride (but not really racing), really all that is "needed" for fuel (to avoid bonking and get to the end with a little spunk) would be some jam/jelly and bread...or to make it generic - some simple sugars and maybe some longer chain carbs with some salt (and water, of course). Does that seem about right?
On such a ride, I really don't feel like I have to eat...but I certainly want to keep my energy level up. We typically stop at some point for a snack anyway, so I want to eat as little as possible. But I also want to have energy to finish strong. Thanks for your replies.

WhyFi

Some of us like eating, you waif.

gregf83 

There's no benefit to long chain carbs. The best fuel is something with the quickest path into your blood like maltodextrin which is also easier on your stomach. You don't need much, if anything, for a 50 mile race. Maybe a gel or two but you have should have enough stored glycogen to last for 2 1/2 hrs.

Doge

I did.
Peanut butter, almond butter etc. In the little packs work great.

I have never ever heard of someone starting a ride without having stimulated on some drug (caffeine) or carbs bonking.
You do not bonk unless you have carbs and run out. You just go slower. This is a huge issue with kids that are jacked up on sugar and caffeine pre-race. They take off like being shot out of a cannon and 1 hour later - *poof*.

Finishing use sugar, and caffeine - to go faster.

Carbonfiberboy 

^Greg, in 66 is exactly correct as usual. I've fueled with almost pure carbs on everything from TTs to 400ks to centuries with 10,000'. You want to keep slowly taking in calories the whole ride. Eaten fat is no more useful than stored fat, in fact less useful because it just sits in the stomach under hard effort.

Stratocaster

Sweet. Thank you, guys.
So I guess my strategy of bringing a sleeve of Nature Valley Maple and Brown Sugar granola bars is a good snack to nibble on from time to time to keep something in the tank. That seemed to work last time, and goes with (I think) what you've mentioned.
Like I said, our rides tend to be "spirited", but not a race. So it's nice to know that it's not really necessary to overthink and over eat.
Thank you!

Doge

Please describe your 13-15mph hard efforts on (I assume) non-climbs.

Carbonfiberboy 

What is easy for me is not easy for everyone. I think this point has been amply made.

Carbonfiberboy 

This is a huge issue with all those who are clueless about nutrition and it's relation to exercise. Not to put too fine a point on it.

A knowledgeable rider will eat 200-400 calories of carbs, depending on time of day, 2-3 hours before a ride and then nothing after that until the ride starts.

Caffeine does not cause bonking. On the contrary, caffeine improves recruitment of fatty acids from stored fat and delays bonking. Which term, as Greg pointed out, refers to using up all one's glycogen, not to a temporary drop in blood sugar, which is what you are referring to.

FXjohn

I have a technique i use. When I'm hungry I eat, then the pain goes away. doesn't matter what the food is. I've traveled with eggs, jerky, meat sandwiches, grapes, bananas, apples, grapes. I don't need food for an hour or two ride.

Doge

There we go. Fouty years of cycling and thinking the way I do about nutrition makes me stupid too. Sure glad my kid was not trained with my ideas.

FWIW - if you care - I know that. A road rider (road bike, paved roads) will not deplete glycogen if you don't start with caffeine, or carbs and ride < 15mph average (assuming flattish course). I'm working with 27-28 mph averages over 109 miles and 9,000feet. Then - we have a different issue. And there will be no carbs before the event.

Garfield Cat

Yes, big difference when temps are in the 60's versus 90's. Way different.