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Where is the Weight Difference coming from?

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Where is the Weight Difference coming from?

Old 11-15-23, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Redbullet
Now a 5000 EUR / USD bike is 2-2.5 kg heavier and part of this difference comes from lower grade (cheaper) carbon fiber used, compared with 6-7 years ago.
Most manufacturers offer their carbon frames in a number of tier levels and the weight difference between their lightest and heaviest is pretty marginal. eg Canyon Aeroad CFR 915g, SLX 990g, SL 996g. So here you save less than 100g on the all-singing-and-dancing CFR frame. Of course the CFR will be much stiffer too, but thatís irrelevant to the weight discussion.

The Aethos S-works frame is 585g vs 699g for the cheaper Comp version. So again around 100g difference and comparing it with the Tarmac frame weights of 800g and 920g for S-works and standard frames gives you an idea of the aero weight penalty ie around 200g.

Your claim that they are using lower grade carbon today is totally unfounded. But even if they were it wouldnít even begin to account for an overall bike weight difference of 2kg+
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Old 11-15-23, 06:22 AM
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Some comments from a happy Endurace owner (2022 SL8 in XL, Di2).
The battery is in the downtube, which means removing the BB for any maintenance.
The new little storage compartment is very cool, wish my bike had one.

This is my first CF bike, all steel til now. The low weight is super, but what I like best is the compliance of the whole system. So much of the road bumps, shocks and rattles are absorbed. I'm sure the C'dale will be similar.
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Old 11-15-23, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinNYC
Some comments from a happy Endurace owner (2022 SL8 in XL, Di2).
The battery is in the downtube, which means removing the BB for any maintenance.
The new little storage compartment is very cool, wish my bike had one.

This is my first CF bike, all steel til now. The low weight is super, but what I like best is the compliance of the whole system. So much of the road bumps, shocks and rattles are absorbed. I'm sure the C'dale will be similar.
I agree the Endurace is a very comfortable, totally rattle free ride. I have the eTap version of your bike. I think itís the combination of modern 30c tyres and well-damped carbon contact points that make it. My Giant Defy is slightly less refined with alloy bars and stem, but otherwise very similar level of compliance.
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Old 11-15-23, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I am totally unconvinced about the significance of gyroscopic effects on bicycle handling. Especially not within the range of typical 1-2 kg wheel sets. It might well change the steering ďfeelĒ but not the performance. But this is getting way OT for this thread.
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Old 11-15-23, 12:12 PM
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Cannondale/Canyon
Weights: 8.9kg / 7.76kg
Difference: 1.14kg

Wheels: 200g, advantage Canyon
Handlebar/Stem: 150g, advantage Canyon (FSA Gossamer ~320g, stem ~110g)
Radar: 70g, advantage Canyon (based on Varia 515 weight)
Headlight: 150g, advantage Canyon (based on typical headlight with battery)
Seatpost: negligible (220g for Canyon not that light, C’Dale specs 350mm post - fairly long)
Tires: 40g (Conti GP5k likely weigh just a bit lighter than Rubinos in the same size)

= ~610g

This leaves 500g unexplained, though I think the two likeliest are:
- C’Dale measures a 56cm, no idea what size Canyon measures
- The Canyon used is their SLX model, so one step up from their SL, likely giving it a bit of an advantage with type of CF (~200-300g or so)

Stripped of their nonessentials, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Canyon was still about 1-1.5lbs lighter (450-675g) due to the wheels (200g), handlebar/stem (150g), and probably a slight advantage to the frame (~200-300g)

All that said, I’m surprised that C’Dale is going for ‘value add’ with the headlight and radar rather than ‘performance’ with nicer carbon or lighter wheels.

My 20.7lbs Bianchi (with new wheels!) now holds the record for a 29mi, 1300ft route of mine, over my 19.4lbs Lynskey. I credit the difference to much tighter gearing, which makes it just a little easier to stay between 80-90rpm on rolling grades. Aside from gearing, the Lynskey should be better in every way - lighter, more aero wheels, much newer drivetrain, similar positions on the bike. So I wouldn’t discount that factor, in peoples’ pursuit of speed.
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Old 11-15-23, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox

This leaves 500g unexplained, though I think the two likeliest are:

- The Canyon used is their SLX model, so one step up from their SL, likely giving it a bit of an advantage with type of CF (~200-300g or so)
Frame weights - both medium
Endurace = 980 g (SLX)
Synapse = 1035 g

So only 55g difference there. Iím not surprised as 200-300g would be a huge difference on a 1 kg frame.
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Old 11-15-23, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
It’s the very low values of “A” involved with a bicycle that make it insignificant.
I've heard that "acceleration is small and therefore insignificant" claim before, but I'm not convinced it is wholly accurate.

Yes, accelerations are low in bicycling, relative to a motor vehicle. But does that make them insignificant? I would think that acceleration is quite important to a track cyclist doing a standing start 250, or a road cyclist attacking on a steep climb, or the attacked cyclist trying to bridge back. Having attacked--and having been attacked--many times, I can say that getting up to speed quickly is pretty important for getting a gap.

A standing start track sprinter goes from 0-15 m/s in about 150 meters.
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Old 11-15-23, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Frame weights - both medium
Endurace = 980 g (SLX)
Synapse = 1035 g

So only 55g difference there. Iím not surprised as 200-300g would be a huge difference on a 1 kg frame.
Oh, I'm actually surprised it's that close. I've been of the mindset that top-end race frames are coming in ~800g now, midrange ~1000g, and entry level ~1200g. I guess both of these are more 'midrange,' I was expecting the Canyon to be midrange and the Synapse to rely on a heavier frameset.
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Old 11-15-23, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
I've heard that "acceleration is small and therefore insignificant" claim before, but I'm not convinced it is wholly accurate.

Yes, accelerations are low in bicycling, relative to a motor vehicle. But does that make them insignificant? I would think that acceleration is quite important to a track cyclist doing a standing start 250, or a road cyclist attacking on a steep climb, or the attacked cyclist trying to bridge back. Having attacked--and having been attacked--many times, I can say that getting up to speed quickly is pretty important for getting a gap.

A standing start track sprinter goes from 0-15 m/s in about 150 meters.
Okay so let's use my spreadsheet to calculate the power difference for 1 kg on a 0-15 m/s balls out acceleration

Lets say we accelerate at 2.5 m/s/s from a standing start up to 15 m/s.

For 80 kg total mass, that acceleration requires an average power of 1556 W for 6 seconds.
For 79 kg total mass, that acceleration requires an average power of 1537 W for 6 seconds.

So a power saving of 19 W for 1 kg of weight under those extreme conditions. Once up to speed the power saving is of course zero. It's not like a steady climb against gravity.

But we are not track sprinters banging out 1500W (and that's just the power required to accelerate the mass in a frictionless vacuum). We are talking about 2 endurance road bikes here. They are never going to accelerate at those rates and therefore the power savings in accelerating the mass will be insignificant (as Swiss Side showed in their criterium simulation with multiple sprints out of slow corners).
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Old 11-15-23, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox
Cannondale/Canyon
Weights: 8.9kg / 7.76kg
Difference: 1.14kg

Wheels: 200g, advantage Canyon
Handlebar/Stem: 150g, advantage Canyon (FSA Gossamer ~320g, stem ~110g)
Radar: 70g, advantage Canyon (based on Varia 515 weight)
Headlight: 150g, advantage Canyon (based on typical headlight with battery)
Seatpost: negligible (220g for Canyon not that light, CíDale specs 350mm post - fairly long)
Tires: 40g (Conti GP5k likely weigh just a bit lighter than Rubinos in the same size)

= ~610g

This leaves 500g unexplained, though I think the two likeliest are:
- CíDale measures a 56cm, no idea what size Canyon measures
.
Except this review
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/...eld-test-2022/
puts the weight for the CDale as being for their as-tested 51cm frame?
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Old 11-15-23, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Except this review
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/...eld-test-2022/
puts the weight for the CDale as being for their as-tested 51cm frame?
From that review:-

ďOk, itís heavy. And yet, it didnít come up as a negative with any of us. Despite those wide puncture-resistant tyres and not-feathery alloy wheels, the bike retains a light and whippy feel to it.Ē

The review also mentions that the SmartSense kit weighs 462g, so thatís a fair chunk of the weight difference to the Canyon.
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Old 11-15-23, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
From that review:-
Originally Posted by PeteHski

ďOk, itís heavy. And yet, it didnít come up as a negative with any of us. Despite those wide puncture-resistant tyres and not-feathery alloy wheels, the bike retains a light and whippy feel to it.Ē

The review also mentions that the SmartSense kit weighs 462g, so thatís a fair chunk of the weight difference to the Canyon.


Great, from the updated information in this thread, I guess I can update the list, too:

Cannondale/Canyon
Weights: 8.9kg / 7.76kg
Difference: 1.14kg

Wheels: ~300g, advantage Canyon (1400 DiCuts @ 1477g claimed, Fulcrums @ 1760g via Velo review)
Handlebar/Stem: 150g, advantage Canyon (FSA Gossamer ~320g, stem ~110g)
SmartSense: 462g, advantage Canyon (based on Velo review measurements)
Seatpost: negligible (220g for Canyon not that light, CíDale specs 350mm post - fairly long)
Tires: 40g (Conti GP5k likely weigh just a bit lighter than Rubinos in the same size)

= ~940g

Which gets us down to about ~200g variance between the two bikesí claimed weights, though Veloís review makes it sound like we should take Cídaleís claimed 8.9kg for a 56cm with a grain of salt (Velo measured their 51cm @ 8.91kg).

And wow, that SmartSense is adding a whole extra lbs to the bike.
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Old 11-16-23, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox

Great, from the updated information in this thread, I guess I can update the list, too:

Cannondale/Canyon
Weights: 8.9kg / 7.76kg
Difference: 1.14kg

Wheels: ~300g, advantage Canyon (1400 DiCuts @ 1477g claimed, Fulcrums @ 1760g via Velo review)
Handlebar/Stem: 150g, advantage Canyon (FSA Gossamer ~320g, stem ~110g)
SmartSense: 462g, advantage Canyon (based on Velo review measurements)
Seatpost: negligible (220g for Canyon not that light, C’Dale specs 350mm post - fairly long)
Tires: 40g (Conti GP5k likely weigh just a bit lighter than Rubinos in the same size)

= ~940g

Which gets us down to about ~200g variance between the two bikes’ claimed weights, though Velo’s review makes it sound like we should take C’dale’s claimed 8.9kg for a 56cm with a grain of salt (Velo measured their 51cm @ 8.91kg).

And wow, that SmartSense is adding a whole extra lbs to the bike.
I think you are more or less there now. Difference in frame size weights are usually only around 20-40g per step frame size, so not huge. The C'dale fork might be a bit heavier than the Canyon SLX, but I would bet they are within 50g.

Did you include the 55g frame weight difference above?
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Old 11-16-23, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
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As was the post PeteHski was replying to. And yours. And mine.
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Old 11-16-23, 04:33 AM
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The Cannondale comes with bottle cage bolts.
😮 😉
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Old 11-16-23, 05:47 AM
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Don't forget to add the powermeter weight to the Canyon :-)
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Old 11-16-23, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I think you are more or less there now. Difference in frame size weights are usually only around 20-40g per step frame size, so not huge. The C'dale fork might be a bit heavier than the Canyon SLX, but I would bet they are within 50g.

Did you include the 55g frame weight difference above?
Good catch, I remember wanting to include it, but I donít see that as a line item.

Accounting for ~50g difference in frame weight (advantage Canyon), weíre down to about 140-150g difference. Realistically, at this point, weíre probably talking about weight variances of individual components - seatpost, saddles, cranks etc being off by 10g from their claimed weights isnít uncommon. Heck, Canyon couldíve put latex tubes in when they weighed and Cannondale couldíve been liberal with the grease and carbon paste when they did assembly, and those alone would cover the difference.
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Old 11-16-23, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox
Good catch, I remember wanting to include it, but I donít see that as a line item.

Accounting for ~50g difference in frame weight (advantage Canyon), weíre down to about 140-150g difference. Realistically, at this point, weíre probably talking about weight variances of individual components - seatpost, saddles, cranks etc being off by 10g from their claimed weights isnít uncommon. Heck, Canyon couldíve put latex tubes in when they weighed and Cannondale couldíve been liberal with the grease and carbon paste when they did assembly, and those alone would cover the difference.
Yep, down to the noise and discrepancies in claimed vs real weights etc. But all the key differences are accounted for.

Both nice bikes. But I really donít like the SmartSense kit on the Cannondale. I already have a rear Varia and a wireless front day running light. I donít need any extra wiring and central battery. I predict Cannondale will quietly drop this on the next frame update as I would imagine it is losing sales.

Nobody ever avoided a bike like this because it didnít come with integrated lights. But I think plenty of people will avoid it because it does!
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Old 11-16-23, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Yep, down to the noise and discrepancies in claimed vs real weights etc. But all the key differences are accounted for.

Both nice bikes. But I really donít like the SmartSense kit on the Cannondale. I already have a rear Varia and a wireless front day running light. I donít need any extra wiring and central battery. I predict Cannondale will quietly drop this on the next frame update as I would imagine it is losing sales.

Nobody ever avoided a bike like this because it didnít come with integrated lights. But I think plenty of people will avoid it because it does!
Agreed. Living a couple of miles off of a rail trail during the pandemic, I had no need for a radar, and honestly little need for lights - rarely out late enough that I'd bother turning on my blinkies for the ~2mi on road to get home. Maybe it would be different if there weren't obvious cost-cutting moves on the C'Dale, but I'd rather that $100 in COGS that went into the radar and lights go into nicer wheels or cockpit. In fact, I think it would be nice if C'Dale offered SmartSense as a dealer-installed package, instead. You know, like that trunk spoiler you see on Integras.
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