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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 02-27-24, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
As has already been pointed out, you've got this precisely backwards.

If you think that the new bike industry is a cartel, then either you don't understand the definition of that word or you don't understand reality.
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It could be both ...

I'm personally in a cartel in my day job industry, so believe me, I understand.

​​​​​​​.

Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
I'm personally in a cartel in my day job industry, so believe me, I understand.
Show me the evidence that there is a cartel in the new bike industry.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by waters60
Seems like a pretty damning indictment of this technology…
Grabbing my popcorn!
Your at 75 posts on a well-worn topic. Double feature territory!
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Old 02-27-24, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Show me the evidence that there is a cartel in the new bike industry.
We cartels don't release our internal communications to the public.

But don't worry, you'll know we got you when you find your wallet significantly lighter.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Show me the evidence that there is a cartel in the new bike industry.
Originally Posted by Yan
We cartels don't release our internal communications to the public.
So you have no evidence. Gotcha.

By the way, I know of no businesses that release their "internal communications to the public." So nothing unusual about that.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:39 PM
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Visited my local bike dealer recently. One of the 'big three'. Most of the higher end road and gravel options came hookless, with a small selection of 'approved' tire options. Of course these options were only sold through the dealer network, and they were all bloody expensive.

I think the next evolution of the bike industry is brand-specific wheel/tire sizes. That is, tires completely specific to each of the 'big three' vendors, so as to further encourage brand loyalty. Since 'bigger' and 'stiffer' is always better in the minds of the naive buying public, this may spawn a tit for tat arms race of wheel diameters that could go like this: 29 to 29.5, then 30.0, 30.5 etc.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Since 'bigger' and 'stiffer' is always better
Wait...I thought we were talking about bikes?
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Old 02-27-24, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Not if they and their competitors are in a cartel.

That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.



I hear what you're saying, but the reality is that most manufacturers have jumped to hookless and all their wheels are as expensive as ever. They've collectively adopted this cost saving measure for themselves, and consumers are left in exactly the same position as before, except now with an arguably inferior product.

If it was the case that brands are selling both hooked and hookless versions of their wheels, and consumers have the option of saving money by choosing the hookless version, THAT would make sense. But that's not the case, is it? For example if you go to the Hunt website, their high end wheel is $3,000 and it's hookless. Where's the money that I'm supposedly "saving"? Why can't I get a hooked version if I'm willing to pay more? Consumers have been conned, no matter how much the brands try to fluff and spin that hookless is "better".

Yeah, it's better. Better for themselves. Not better for us.
I thought Zipp wheel prices came down after they went hookless? They certainly look competitive compared to some hooked alternatives. Some major manufacturers (DT Swiss for example) are not making the move to hookless and are being pretty vocal about it. So there is still plenty of choice in the market.


The way I see it right now is that if you are selling hookless wheels, then you need to be pricing pretty keenly to convince anyone to make the switch. If you are going to use lower production cost as part of your marketing, then your pricing needs to back that up to some extent. Zipp at least appear to have done that.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Not if they and their competitors are in a cartel.

That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.
I don't think there are any cartels in the bike industry--too much fragmentation. Although there's not much public info on bike company financials, I don't suspect there are gobs of profit to be made on bikes and bike components. You can't just look at the MSRP of a bike or component and conclude that the maker is raking in the dough.

Yes, the well-known brands can price their products at a premium, probably because of brand recognition and supply chain penetration.

I try not to let brand name affect my buying decisions, but established brands do engender some trustworthiness. I took a risk and recently bought a pair of Winspace HYPER wheels, and they seem to be very good quality. Fingers crossed.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
So you have no evidence. Gotcha.

By the way, I know of no businesses that release their "internal communications to the public." So nothing unusual about that.
Fair is fair, you got me. I have no evidence. I don't like to beat about the bush.

But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence, I got your nose".

You see the problem with that logic?
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Old 02-27-24, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Visited my local bike dealer recently. One of the 'big three'.
.
You appear to do this quite often. Do you ever actually buy anything there or just walk around sucking your teeth?
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Old 02-27-24, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Fair is fair, you got me. I have no evidence. I don't like to beat about the bush.

But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence".

You see the problem with that logic?
That's complete nonsense. deBeers and OPEC are two very well-known cartels -- they have never even tried to make a secret of their business models. The International Tin Agreement and the International Bauxite Association are also (defunct) examples. Again, very well-known, very well-understood -- they made no secret of their attempts to cartelize their respective industries.

Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
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Old 02-27-24, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
I took a risk and recently bought a pair of Winspace HYPER wheels, and they seem to be very good quality. Fingers crossed.
Those Winspace Hyper 50mm wheels are independently tested to be more aerodynamic than almost every wheel on the market, including from Zipp, Enve, and Hunt. Ironically for how popular they are, Hunt wheels are some of the absolute worst. Hop over to the Weight Weenies forums and you'll see countless posts devoted to these Winspace wheels. They've become wildly popular in the last few years and nobody has a bad thing to say about them. You did well getting them now because in a few years when their reputation catches up to their true quality, you'll never get their wheels again for that price.

No doubt you already know all this, after all that's why you bought them.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
That's complete nonsense. deBeers and OPEC are two very well-known cartels -- they have never even tried to make a secret of their business models. The International Tin Agreement and the International Bauxite Association are also (defunct) examples. Again, very well-known, very well-understood -- they made no secret of their attempts to cartelize their respective industries.

Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
Your lack of knowledge poking through Koyote. You're confusing two different types of cartels.
.
  1. Price fixing cartels are illegal in almost every democracy in the world including the US. De Beers of South Africa that you brought up has been in legal trouble in the US for as long as they've existed. The US government has been taking anti-trust action against them for decades and to this day they are unable to maintain a corporate presence in the US. At some point they attempted to secretly enter the US diamond market, and got kicked out when the US government found out. They were still being pursued by the US legal system as recently as the 2000s.
  2. OPEC and the others you mentioned are a different type of cartel, Export Cartels. Unlike price fixing cartels, these are universally legal around the world.

Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.

Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:31 PM
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On my gravel bike I don't see an issue with hookless. On large volume tires there's no need to pump air beyond 60 PSI. It was also super easy to bead my tubeless tires with just a regular floor pump. No need for a compressor. To me it's a win-win.

On my road bike, I'm in the hooked camp. I like pumping my road tires up to 90-100 PSI and I prefer lightweight clinchers + TPU tubes. I've had blow outs on fast downhills and thankfully my hooked road wheels kept the tire securely in the rim bead in order to safely slow down with no damage to the wheel or myself.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Makes yourself look bad.
It doesn't look nearly as bad as making stuff up ...

Originally Posted by Yan
I have no evidence.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It doesn't look nearly as bad as making stuff up ...
Alright Tomato. I'm willing to type whatever you want to help you reduce your angst. "There's no cartel". See I typed it. Are you happy now?

Next time you quote me kindly quote the entire post instead of sneakily taking a few words out of context to manipulate.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Alright Tomato. I'm willing to type whatever you want to help you reduce your angst. "There's no cartel". See I typed it. Are you happy now?
There's no angst anywhere around here -- just making an observation.

Next time you quote me kindly quote the entire post instead of sneakily taking a few words out of context to manipulate.
Your statements were shortened for brevity, but they were not out of context. You accused another poster of being arrogant, and stated that it made him look bad. You admitted to making stuff up, which (in my opinion) makes you look worse.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
There's no angst anywhere around here -- just making an observation.
My mistake. It was just an observation. Pardon me.

Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Your statements were shortened for brevity, but they were not out of context.
Bullsh*t not out of context.

Originally Posted by Yan
I have no evidence.
Originally Posted by Yan
Fair is fair, you got me. I have no evidence. I don't like to beat about the bush.

But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence, I got your nose".

You see the problem with that logic?
​​​​​​​
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Old 02-27-24, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Your lack of knowledge poking through Koyote. You're confusing two different types of cartels.
You seem to be the one who's confused. You've asserted that there is a cartel in the bike manufacturing industry, but that is obviously false. I think you are merely using the term 'cartel' incorrectly and instead are trying to argue that there is collusion in the bike industry...Note that a cartel is a form of collusion, but not all collusion is a cartel -- most is not, in fact.

But again, the important part is that you have admitted to having no evidence for any of this. So, regardless of what you choose (incorrectly) to call it, your assertion is entirely unsupported.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
You seem to be the one who's confused.
Nope. See the below.

Originally Posted by Koyote
That's complete nonsense. deBeers and OPEC are two very well-known cartels -- they have never even tried to make a secret of their business models. The International Tin Agreement and the International Bauxite Association are also (defunct) examples. Again, very well-known, very well-understood -- they made no secret of their attempts to cartelize their respective industries.

Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
Your lack of knowledge poking through Koyote. You're confusing two different types of cartels.
.
  1. Price fixing cartels are illegal in almost every democracy in the world including the US. De Beers of South Africa that you brought up has been in legal trouble in the US for as long as they've existed. The US government has been taking anti-trust action against them for decades and to this day they are unable to maintain a corporate presence in the US. At some point they attempted to secretly enter the US diamond market, and got kicked out when the US government found out. They were still being pursued by the US legal system as recently as the 2000s.
  2. OPEC and the others you mentioned are a different type of cartel, Export Cartels. Unlike price fixing cartels, these are universally legal around the world.

Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Your lack of knowledge poking through Koyote. You're confusing two different types of cartels.
.
  1. Price fixing cartels are illegal in almost every democracy in the world including the US. De Beers of South Africa that you brought up has been in legal trouble in the US for as long as they've existed. The US government has been taking anti-trust action against them for decades and to this day they are unable to maintain a corporate presence in the US. At some point they attempted to secretly enter the US diamond market, and got kicked out when the US government found out. They were still being pursued by the US legal system as recently as the 2000s.
  2. OPEC and the others you mentioned are a different type of cartel, Export Cartels. Unlike price fixing cartels, these are universally legal around the world.

Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.
You can make the same post twice, but it doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevant. It's just random info about cartels and completely unrelated to the bike industry.
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Old 02-27-24, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
You can make the same post twice, but it doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevant. It's just random info about cartels and completely unrelated to the bike industry.
It's not random. It's a response to things what you specifically brought up. If you want to accuse it of being random, you can only blame yourself. If you think it's irrelevant, again, you can only blame yourself for bringing it up.

Alright Koyote, I'm willing to type whatever you want to help you reduce your deep angst. "There's no cartel". See I typed it. Are you happy now?
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Old 02-27-24, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Alright Tomato. I'm willing to type whatever you want to help you reduce your angst.
Originally Posted by Yan
Alright Koyote, I'm willing to type whatever you want to help you reduce your deep angst.
Along with cartel, you also seem to not understand the meaning of angst. I see nothing in my posts or in tomato coupe posts which indicate the present of angst.
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Old 02-27-24, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Along with cartel, you also seem to not understand the meaning of angst. I see nothing in my posts or in tomato coupe posts which indicate the present of angst.

Really? Because you sure sound pretty angsty. For example, you're still acting up even after I offered to parrot to you exactly what you want to hear.

When someone has already gotten everything they wanted, yet they are still continuing to act up, that's angst.
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