Been thinking about the track/bike comparison, as I'm new to road bikes but have been doing track events & auto races for a few years. Track events (lapping days, driver's ed, etc) are carefully segregated by driver ability - not $$$ of the car. At least all the ones I go to & know of locally. Racing, you definitely have newbies mixed with experts, but the intimidation factor for newbies is really high in racing, and those who aren't smart are easily dealt w. via playground rules.

If high speed driver's ed events were a free-for-all of newbies & good drivers all out together at 60-160 mph, you'd see a lot more complaints of snobbery, elitism, hostility, whatever.

Just a thought...

Come to think of it, I wonder how the fatality rates compare between amateur autosports & biking? They each have very different, but very real threats (squished by a car versus extreme sudden decelleration or burning).

I agree with this point. When I got my first bike and first started mountain biking, I was so happy to be out on the trails, and enjoyed the perceived comradery with others who I may pass. So I smiled and waved frequently. I never went beyond the point of recreational riding, maybe doing 2 rides per week, but even with that much riding and as the newness fades you realize it's not necessary to smile and wave at everyone. You realize you can do your own thing out there without reciting 15 hellos per ride. You also realize most people don't need or expect your acknolwedgement with every pass. All that is required is common courtesy, not overt friendliness.

I also agree that cyclists tend to focus. It's kinda moving meditation, you get into a rythm, and your mind focuses on guiding your bike over rocky terrain or along stretches of roads. That's one of the healthful benefits of this form of exercise -- you simultaneously vent stress thru physical exertion and thru mind focus. Heck, a friend of mine says its hugely therapeutic to drive his tractor around farmland, because his mind focuses only on keeping that wheel just inside the swath that was cut. To be unnecessarily extroverted would be a distraction, both to yourself and as a matter of common courtesy to others.

Then there is the fact that a bike is a gadget, like a computer. Gadgets and technology like bikes and computers foster geekishness and snobbery. But I don't think it's a malevolent form of snobbery, just an intrinsic fascination and consciousness with the equipment. I think every hobby and niche has its geeks.

There is also an element of competition. Competition need not be an intense desire to be the fastest, best rider out there. But everyone seeks to improve on some level, and even though it may be about self improvement the most readily available reference point is other riders. Even as a solo activity, riders are probably prey to becoming overly competitive, and insecure if left unchecked.

Finally, there is the insecurity of being new to a hobby. One is probably overly self-conscious, and reads too much into the thoughts and expressions of others. Could be nobody is even really noticing or caring about you or your bike at any given moment.

that was really well put Towlie, and has changed my thinking on the subject, Thanks

Without reading every single post here, I would have to say I don't necessarily agree with Mr. Roark, but I can say I agree in part- there are definitely some snobs that ride, and sometimes the snobbery is so bad it's distasteful. Even on these forums, I see the elitist snobs here and there. The ones who make the comments about the lesser quality bikes. The ones who harp on the newbies. The ones who chide other members about their lack of knowledge about racing because they are new to the sport, whether participating or observing. It's sad.

It's actually sad to me, because we are always whining about how we wish more people would be involved, how OLN won't broadcast more racing, how we should all stick together. Then someone (or several someones) will always take it back to the "we're better than you" crap. I get tired of it. Instead of being happy that lots of people are watching road racing because they watch Tour de France (which is the only race shown on American local television, unless you can spring for the package for OLN when it's being offered in your area!), and trying to educate people about different cyclists, races, etc., newbies are instead treated with disdain. If someone mentions they have a lower level bike, or a walmart bike, they are ridiculed and treated like idiots. It's no wonder we can't get more people into cycling. As soon as the newbies get started and ask a few questions, the elitists immediately start in with their snobby attitude, and in a lot of cases, I think they drive the newbies away. I have NEVER seen anything like this in any country I've ever traveled to. I see it all the time here in the USA. I don't know what to make of this phenomenon, except to blame it either on the fact that the snobs are actually so sad and pathetic that they have to find something to make themselves feel so superior, or that it is really true- we Americans are so fixated on class structure that we look down on people who may not have it as good as we do, or lack the opportunity to have education or goods that the snobs have. We are totally fixated on material things, and sometimes, it really does cloud our judgement and how we view others.

I remember when I first started getting interested in cycling. It was 1997, and everyone had the nice bikes, but I didn't have the money for anything, so I borrowed my sister's old Ross bike and rode by myself. It was a terrible bike, but it was all I had, and no one rode with me. I rode sporadically and talked to some of the cyclists that would actually talk to me, and then I finally did get my own bike in 2001- a hybrid. That bike was clunky and slow, but not as bad as my sister's bike. Still, snobs looked down- it wasn't a road bike, so they couldn't be bothered with me. I still rode for the pure enjoyment, but I didn't bother with people, because generally, people couldn't be bothered with me. Now, I have a brand new, beautiful road bike that people will actually stop in traffic and tell me my bike is beautiful. But I bet the elitist snobs will look at my bike and find some fault- maybe my gear ratios aren't enough to please them, or maybe in 2005, they'll look down on the fact that my bike is 2004, or maybe that I just don't ride fast enough for them, didn't do enough centuries, or ride enough miles everyday. It's always something, right?

At that time, I wasn't able to get OLN either. It just wasn't offered in my neighborhood until last year, but I didn't have the means to get OLN until this year. I read the magazines, and then later, I did attend races locally and in Europe. It was a lot of fun, but dang, did I miss being able to participate with the other roadies. And when I could participate, I really couldn't say much. Bicycling magazine and Procycling didn't give me a lot of insight on what was going on in the world of road cycling, and coverage on local tv was few and far between. Now, I have OLN, I watch the bike races, read eurosport.com cycling news, and occasionally go to Europe for some of the bike races still, as well as go to some of the local races here. But I will bet you all my money in my mutual fund that those elitist snobs will still look down on me. I might have some education, but now I don't have enough education about cycling, so I still can't be accepted. If it's not one thing, it's another. Sheesh!

I really think elitists are just always wanting to find something so they can make themselves feel better- and for them, it's making others feel worse. If they seriously were so concerned about making cycling universally more accepted and promoting cycling to as many people as possible, they would do less ridicule and more education. I'm not saying we all have to be like Pollyana and play the "Glad Game", but it would be nice if the elitists would come off that little cloud they live on every now and then. I personally avoid the elitists like the plague- they aren't worth the ground I spit on, nor are they worth my time. I just do my best to promote cycling to the "common people" in the best way I know how, and I think I do a good job of it. I love to talk to people about cycling, stop and help people with bike repair or help no matter what type of bike they ride, educate people with the little I do know about cycling, and show general enthusiasm and support for the sport. I hope my positivity wears off on the people I encounter, and hopefully, the newbies can look past the idiots and snobs who are so little and have such low self-esteem that they have to look down on others to make themselves feel better. The sad thing is, by looking down at others, they just make themselves look worse instead of better, so the end does not justify the means in their situation. Of course, you can't tell them that, since they probably would just come up with something else to make themselves look better. Uuugh.

I can totally see how a newbie can get turned off by cycling. The attitude of the snobs don't help them any, and as a result, it doesn't help cycling any either.

I ride alone too.

Koffee

My bike's 10 years older than the day I bought it, and so am I (for better or worse), it's got downtube shifters and only just this month got clipless pedals. I've been eyeing the "better bikes" for years and hearing the same crap from some of the elitists types you've mentioned. I ride alone too but it's really by choice. I go as fast or as slow as I want, can listen to music or the wind and as for the critism of other cyclists on the rare occasion I see them, I always learn something from it -- i.e. I'd never know what makes a good bike if they weren't telling me what's so crappy about mine, lol. So, think of the elitists as "educators" and if one of 'em really gets under your skin remind them that "it's not about the bike, it's about the engine". Oh and if you're ever in MA, send me a note, I'll ride with ya.

Perhaps the only place more susceptible <sp?> to poseurs more than road biking has got to be computing. ;-)

Not calling you one, but referring to the original thread, I'm just pointing out that with expensive technology that evolves at a quick pace (like computing and road cycling), there's always gonna be the rich guy that pops a $9K colnago in his garage and and $5K Powerbook on his lap. Rest well knowing that he'll never figure out what to do with either. Oh, well that's not completely true, he'll probably figure out how to make his wallpaper be a picture of his bike -- it'll take him 3 hrs spent indoors at the keyboard on a gorgeous summer morning with a light breeze and a local traffic/driving ban in place ;-)

MY TWO CENTS:

I'll never forget my first day of cycle racing at the local velodrome
all those years ago (1987) at the young age of twenty. I was so excited, I could
hardly sleep the night before, just wondering what was gunna happen, etc, etc.

None of my friends were into cycling at all, so I was very much looking
forward to finally meating people with whom I shared the wonderful passion
of cycling.

Before I finally registered to compete, I spent about a month watching
the racing at the velodrome every saturday, from a distance, with a
stopwatch, just to see how fast they were, then I busted my gut, training like a
maniac for another month, just to make sure I wouldn't make a fool of myself.

So, silly me strolls on up to velodrome on that first day with big thighs and reasonable
fitness, and manages to win two B grade races...OOOPS! Maybe that was my mistake;
daring to be a 'newbie' with good fitness.

So, the "punchline" is, the only person who spoke to me, out of the fifty or so
people that were, was the guy at the start line who had to write down my name
and take my 5 bucks. ONE PERSON SPOKE TO ME!!

I couldn't figure out what was going on. I came from teams sports, I had a lot of friends,
and I was a gregarious kinda guy, so why the cold shoulder? I drove home that
day, partly satisfied with my performance on the bike, but mostly dismayed
by the lack of warmth.

The next week I tried to strike up conversations, but
my laboured efforts were met with short replys.

After a month, nobody even bothered to tell me that the club also held
criteriums 3 times a week; I found out by accidentally over hearing someone
discussing it, then asked a guy at one of the bikes shops to find where and when.

By the end of the season there was about 3 guys who acknowleged my presence.

I didn't bother going back the next year.


Well, what a sob storey..BOO HOO!!

FWIW, I always try to be friendly, wave at other bikers and ask if they need help on the road. I’ll ride with slower people for the conversation or faster people for the draft, I don't really care.

One time, though, a tri geek got in our group/pace line on a two day event ride. The guy was riding his aero bars in line and was all over the place. I told him to stay out of his aero bars or find another group to ride with. He huffed and left probably thinking I was a snob. The next day, my wife and I rode past him up a hill

-murray

No argument from me there. And I'd also like to posit that computing is like cycling in another respect. Today we have a single desktop machine that can bring more computing power to bear than what was available by combining all of the supercomputers from all over the world 15 years ago. People are being sold more computing capability than what was needed to model nuclear blasts, the birth of the universe, global weather patterns and orbital mechanics for the entire solar system just so they can read email, browse the web and play solitaire. An increase by several orders of magnitude in computing power has led us to a spectacular zero-sum gain in actual productivity.

FWIW, my desktop machine from which I posted that error message is a high-powered Sun workstation that was top-of-the-line for its day (read: 1996) yet still remains strong and serves all my needs today. It serves as my primary machine for everything from code development and video conferencing to serving my webpages to being a general desktop "office-productivity" box. One of the reasons I prefer workstations over PeeCees is that they have lasting power. My Ultra2/2300 is considered EOL and was officially obsolete more than five years ago yet it remains more useful, stable and capable than any "modern" PeeCee I have in my inventory. In the eight years I've had it, it's had an uptime of 99.95%... only going down for minor maintenance such as to replace a drive, apply big system patches or add more memory. Part of it is the OS, part of it was how I configured both the hardware and software and part of it is SPARC the architecture which is far more robust than x86.

At anyrate, "poseur" or not, I respect people for being people and not necessarily for what they're riding or typing on. As long as they're not abusive with their equipment then I really couldn't care less. I may form an opinion from an objective or engineering standpoint about a bike or computer or any other piece of machinery but that has nothing to do with how I view the person.

First time poster. I too came to road biking from mountain, and frequently would get a very cool response when passing roadies on my way down the mountain to home on my filthy Jekyl, so I was a little predisposed. However, since starting to road bike - mostly alone - I have met the nicest guys - unfortunately no women yet - on my rides, generally riding and chatting for miles up a canyon road. So, try expecting a friendly response when passing or being passed. And I'm riding a vintage RADAC 2000 with SPD shoes and a big astronaut sized helmet - plenty fodder for mockery. If no friendly overture is made, whatever....

I'd have to second that! I've met up with guys like that very seldomly on the road and mountain biking. I've seen guys on ragged old 7 speed bikes with hairy legs drop guys on 4k bikes. For the most part cyclists in general are pretty good people. If I'm fixing a flat and someone rides by they will most allways ask if I need help. If I pass someone on the road I usually get a friendly hello or a wave.

I have found, not so much since moving to Austin but a lot in SoCal, that racers can be real a-holes. They only judge you on your speed and if you ain't got it they treat you like a sub-human. It's those guys that I look for on my training rides!

No women! Man you should come ride in Austin Tx we have a ton of female riders and quite a few are very very good looking. I seem to couch a lot more since moving here

2Rodies:

Definitely male dominated sport in SoCal - at least on the Westside/Malibu area. Or maybe I can't tell the difference in all of the biking regalia. Austin is a great town, but a little warm for my taste in the summer. Good looking? My favorite!

Being friendly never hurts. Everyone was new at this sport sometime. Being helpful, but not critical, is even better.
We are tandem riders, and part of my stoker's habit is to wave at all passing cyclists. A friendly 'hi' is not amiss either.
We have ridden the El Tour de Tucson, and many other events, as Bike Patrol, which is a rewarding experience. We get to ride the event and help folks who may be having difficulty; whether it is helping or showing how to fix a puncture, first aid, putting on a dropped chain or words of encouragement.
We've all been there; lets share the joy of riding with others.

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/Zona tandem

G'day,

tandem......does every single person who passes you say to the 'captain', "hey did you know she's not pedalling"?......


cheers,

Hitchy

Good story, I hope you didn't quit racing the next year, just not with that particular group of a-holes? I would take some personal satisfaction from making that kind of impact. My only guess is the only way you could be at fault is if you came across overly cocky. Otherwise, maybe it was a small town or they were a close-knit group? Kinda makes me wonder what country club bigots said when Tiger first came on the scene. Im sure they found SOME way to put him down, despite that they couldnt argue with or deny his results.

ok heres my 2 cents.....

I ride MTB and Road and have found that the attitudes have been practicly polar opposite. ( i train on road for MTB races)

as a newbie on a MTB , i had a decent bike, my friend was riding his GF's no suspension wal-mart ( Big W) special. we would ride in a national park near my place for him to get a feel of things and work out if he wanted to invest the money. everytime we came across other riders they would be overly friendly , offering advice on trails, whats good, whats not , or if they were in a hurry even a quick gday, hows it goin? no on ever made metion or put him down the pink beastie that he was riding.

About 3 - 4 months ago i bit the bullet and spent the hard earned on a roadie to do some training on. Not a bad bike, not a great one. a Lemond Tourmalet. I started riding round the general area and was just absolutley shocked and appauled at the attitudes of alot of riders. Generally ill ride alone, and stick well left in the gutter to stay out of ppls roads. when i rid ei have specific training goals in mind, and im not looking for raw speed.

So lets see, since then been called about every name under the sun, been told off about my bike, been told off for wearing a bright cycling top ( i ride at night) , earing normal shorts instead bike shorts, using mtb clipless instead of road cleats, been minding my own busines and had a group come past and tell me off for going too slow ( id jsut come off an interval...) , and ive seen plenty of other guys hassled for no good reason at all. like i go riding for fun, and it really just makes it crap.

so now screwem. ive had it. changing my riding to early morning, going to do more indoor work etc. if thats the attitude of what road riders are like in sydney then they can keep their sport. god forbid the slagging youd getif you turned up for a road race or a group ride as a newbie

Don't give up. Just get stronger and stronger, let your legs get more hairy, buy bigger shorts, then go down to Centennial Park and BLOW THEIR DOORS OFF.

I promise you will P1SS them off 10 times more than daring to be on "their" road with the "wrong" equipment.

From my experience, half of those guys are usually not strong riders, so if you come across a small group of 4, or so, chances are, 2 of them will be vomiting after 2 mins of hard chasing...hee hee....
(i have no life )

Cheers 531, i guess i jsut had to vent!

ive been invloved in sports such as martial arts and motorsports in the past, but never have i seen the BS that goes with some ( not all!) of the attitudes in road riding.

each to their own. i intend to go back at nights, and i entend to hurt some egos. but till then, im taking my riding elsewhere.

For the 30 years I've been cycling, this problem has been around. The above post certainly is a clear description of the conflicted cyclist who doesn't want others to enjoy the sport unless they are using elitist's ground rules which are always shifting since the elitist's game is to pull the rug out from those who threaten his lofty perch.

The interesting thing about the truly great cyclists who are the household names in Europe and the U.S, is that there isn't one of them who behave in a manner that could be remotely construed as elitist or snobbish.

It is SOOOOOOO true, Tom. I've been to the races often enough in Europe to see the cyclists up close and personal, and they are always the most courteous, polite, and enthusiastic riders of all. I've never had one behave in the manner that I see some of the elitist snobs act. And I will guarantee that most likely, these elitist snobs would be blown out of the water when really placed side by side with the true professionals too, but don't tell that to the elitist snob. They'll just find something else to "elevate" themselves us common folk.

I was just thinking about this thread this morning out on my ride. Last night, I posted a picture of my new bike : https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...322#post566322 and a member commented to me in private about my bike. They said the bike was great, props up and all, but disdainfully said they disapproved of the Shimano pedals I used on the bike. I had to roll my eyes at that remark and remind them that 1) I still am having a hard time riding clipless, and 2) I live in downtown Chicago, and the traffic is much more chaotic when you're picking your way through the city than these po-dunk towns they may live in. And when I mean downtown, I live 1 block from Navy Pier. I love the downtown living, but for cycling, it's the absolute pits!

Just like I said, it's always SOMETHING. Can't be happy for me, just try to find one thing that makes you feel better and superior... I don't think this member intentionally meant this, but that's just how it came off. All it did was reinforce my beliefs that the snobs are not worth it, and proves my theories correct.

Koffee

You're aiming too low

That's a hot bike Koffee!

I have to say that allthough some of the racers that I've known have been arrogant, I have never in my 17 years of cycling ever been insulted. I have had a few "looks" back in the day when I was riding a Centurion LeMans in t-shirt. But no one has ever rode up and said something derrogatory.

As I mentioned before SoCal isn't the home of the overly friendly cyclist, you'll get a nod or a wave most of the time but I rarely got into conversations with people I ran accross on the road. Even in our Sat morning group ride were nice but a little stand-offish.

Here in Austin it's just the opposite. I've met the nicest people on the road and in my group ride. Our Tues/Sat/Sun group rides have a great mix of beg/fast rec/racers and everyone is really friendly. We have our little compititions on climbs and after words we all laugh about getting dropped etc.

I've raced cars for over 20 years now and I hear this kind of thing all the time from the "NASCAR" types saying that the road racers are stuck snobs. Well I've been to NASCAR races and I race road courses and I've met good and bad people at both. Generally the bad ones don't stay long because they don't make many friends. I especailly like beating those guys (and gals) in a car or a bike, to me that's best "revenge".

I thought of this thread the other day when I went riding with two friends. I have a nice road bike, and I always ride with lycra bibs and a jersey; but my two friends don’t ride like I do, and they were wearing shorts, t-shirts, and sneakers. So my friend is riding along, and one of the local trail punks pushes his friend out in front of him while he is riding (on purpose). My friend falls off his bike to avoid the kid, and he gets hurt pretty badly (a couple cracked ribs and some pretty bad cuts). I went ahead and called the cops, because these kids need to pay for what they did. So, as we’re sitting there talking to the police, a roadie rides by us on the greenway trail, and I can just see him giving us this stare. He’s especially staring at me, then when his eyes meet mine, he makes a sneer with his nose, rolls his eyes, and rides away. You all know the kind of “You’re absolute trash, and I’m so much better than you” kind of stare. I wanted to just go chase this weekend warrior roadie down and slap him in the face. First of all, if you’re using the greenway trail for a training ride, you’re probably not that hardcore of a roadie in the first place. Second of all, when he was riding away, I could tell he was seriously nothing special, as he struggled for like five minutes to get his cleat back in his clips. I saw him at a club ride last weekend and took delight in blowing past him in his full Saeco gear.

I think I can say the same thing in my 25 years of cycling. Well, there was that time I joined Team Drag’s pace line on RAGBRAI and one guy scowled at me and said “Hey, you don’t have a dress!” I guess I was the poser that day

(Team Drag is a bunch of high Cat racers who dress in drag, party in every town and scream down the road between parties)

So where does this guy fall in elitest/poser/jerk? I was pacing a slower friend of mine on RAGBRAI when Tom Arnold passed us (yes, that Tom Arnold) on a tricked Lightspeed pedaling about 60 rpm’s. He didn’t look to good

-murray