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Hostile Post Environment?

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Hostile Post Environment?

Old 09-18-09, 12:05 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
So ... why do men treat women like they are just sexual objects? What prompts a guy to say something like, "Was she hot" in response to a thread?
Hormones.

In our case, it's called Testosterone.





BTW I know a couple of college girls that will not hesitate to say things that are absolutely crude and rude (referring to us guys) in front of me because they don't care what I think.
I think that alot of the reason that men behave more crudely than do women is because it is socialized.
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Old 09-18-09, 12:09 AM
  #27  
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In our case, it's called Testosterone
Is that Shimano or Sram?
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Old 09-18-09, 12:20 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Well, it probably is generalizing ... but from my experience the older guys I've known (let's say over 50) have been more gentlemanly than the younger ones I've known. They tend not to go around asking, "Was she hot" first thing when a guy mentions an encounter with a woman.
That's because their (our) testosterone levels are dropping and they are also realizing that they can't compete with the younger males for the truly "hot" women anymore (unless they are stinking rich). So they rationalize things and pretend to convince themselves that they'd prefer a "good talker" or whatever. I'm lucky, my wife is still totally hot! (I'm lucky that she has many other great qualities in addition to that, but if she didn't have those I still would have probably been with her anyway and would just be more miserable all these years later, ha!).


Originally Posted by Machka View Post
So ... why do men treat women like they are just sexual objects?
Take out the word "just" and the answer is because they are men. It's in our DNA to be visual and to judge women on their appearance. Most of us also seek other qualities in women, but we can't ever get past treating them like sexual objects. It's just the way we are built. (gay men are the same, just towards other men: and thus the emphasis on physical looks and grooming and fashion in the gay community). I know it's not something you can truly understand since you aren't made like we are, but surely by your age you've figured out that this is not something that women are going to be able to change about men, right? (unless you start giving us secret hormone shots in our sleep!)

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Old 09-18-09, 12:35 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Get real/Speak for yourself.
Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Hormones.

In our case, it's called Testosterone.





BTW I know a couple of college girls that will not hesitate to say things that are absolutely crude and rude (referring to us guys) in front of me because they don't care what I think.
I think that alot of the reason that men behave more crudely than do women is because it is socialized.

Testosterone does not equal aggression/sexuality/lust. Don't perpetuate a watered down view of being helpless to a steroid hormone. Sure it may play some part, and yes attraction in men is naturally a more visual process than it is in women. Just because I find a women attractive doesn't mean I have to be a tactless pig about it. And let me clarify this one more time for everyone: Testosterone is not an all-powerful sex-craze inducing chemical. Sometimes the higher range of female testosterone levels overlaps the lower range of male testosterone levels, and that doesn't mean all those girls have mustaches or all those men are overly effeminate.
You admit that you act crudely, and that the reason for that behavior is that it is socialized, making you a lackey to social constructs, and yet you tell me to speak for myself?
Sure, I can act crude in certain circumstances where I know that those present understand that sense of humor and won't read something else into it, but to act that way in public (like on a forum) isn't cool. and saying that you don't care what people think about you or if they are offended by what you say doesn't make it okay, doesn't make you tough, and is just more of the same old boring, wanna-be-hardass mentality.

I have been ranting way to much tonight, maybe I'm stressed and taking it out on unsuspecting BF posters. I apologize.
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Old 09-18-09, 12:39 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by pacificaslim View Post
That's because their (our) testosterone levels are dropping and they are also realizing that they can't compete with the younger males for the truly "hot" women anymore (unless they are stinking rich). So they rationalize things and pretend to convince themselves that they'd prefer a "good talker" or whatever. I'm lucky, my wife is still totally hot!

No no no.... How old are you?
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Old 09-18-09, 12:58 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by AlexGSU View Post
I understand what you are saying. Maybe a lot of that stems from the fact that younger dudes still feel the need to prove themselves and their masculinity, whereas older, more mature men are confident in themselves and don't feel like they have to prove anything. Just remember that while we may be the minority, there are some mature, very gentlemanly younger men out here too
Yes, that is true. I've met, and had the pleasure of working with and going to school with, some very nice, well-mannered young men.
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Old 09-18-09, 01:01 AM
  #32  
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Most of the women I ride with are faster than me. No matter. I'd still sit down and have a beer with them. Is that OK?
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Old 09-18-09, 01:06 AM
  #33  
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double post.
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Old 09-18-09, 01:08 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ImRael View Post
No no no.... How old are you?
Not that old, yet. (but starting to fall apart anyway!)

I guess it wasn't obvious that paragraph was tongue-in-cheek?

BTW, there is indeed a difference between acting crudely and just having normal male thoughts. It certainly is unacceptable for men to make rude comments, say, about what they'd like to do to a woman they just saw: even if it would be "normal" for them to think such a thought to themselves!
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Old 09-18-09, 01:13 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
I also don't feel a need to change the way that I behave either. I don't mind saying things that are slightly slobish or slightly sleezy as long as I conclude that it is not extremely innapropriate.

I've worked with and gone to school with a lot of guys ... the Engineering Tech field is full of them. I've also ridden with a lot of guys. The places I've lived haven't exactly been overflowing with female cyclists. And quite a number of them have expressed to me that when a woman joins their group, they feel as though they have to change their behaviour. They feel like they shouldn't fart, swear, and talk about women we happen to be cycling past or who happen to come into the office or whatever.





Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
EDIT: If I was a business (bike shop) owner or even employee, I would treat all of my customers with courtesy and individually regardless of gender because I would want them to spend money.
I've had varying reactions when I go into bicycle shops. Some places are fine. These usually employ women. Others vary between being quite rude to ignoring me completely. One place was notorious for ignoring female cyclists.


Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Sorry about your experiences with the bike clubs. Both clubs that I ride with on a regular basis have females that ride with us on the regular basis and I think I can speak for all of the members when I say it's great to have them around.

One of whom is the owner of the local "elite roadie" shop (which is also a general outdoor-rec store) and she is fit absolutely gracious and almost motherly to me and a number of other male college racer-types. With her shop she sponsors the local club. She gives us free gels, huge discounts, free water bottles and even free bibs/jersey/vest/cap/entire kit whenever we want one.

Not to mention that she is pretty freakin fast, about on par with your average cat4 male.
I've found touring clubs to be quite good when it comes to female members. I've been a member of three touring clubs and they've all got a good mix of males and females, and make females welcome.

I was also a member of my local Randonneuring club in Alberta ... and that group didn't want females involved unless the female was equally as fast as the guys. Having a female out there on the course meant that someone might have to look after her ... can't have a female riding through the mountains alone at night ... so they'd rather just not bother with females, or any sort of slower rider for that matter. They kept talking about getting more people involved ... but if anyone slower joined, they'd leave that person in the dust and make him or her feel very unwelcome. This from a club that's not a racing club doing events that are not races.
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Old 09-18-09, 01:16 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by AlexGSU View Post
Testosterone does not equal aggression/sexuality/lust.
That probably depends on how much one has! Here's a very interesting show on testosterone: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radi...spx?sched=1230 (you can listen free on the web - click "full episode" - or download as podcast for a small fee).

In particular, the segment with Griffin Hansbury, a former "radical feminist lesbian," who became a man will be enlightening to any woman out there who wants to learn a little more about what its like to have a bunch of testosterone. I think this should be required listening for every woman!

To give you a little hint about it, there's a part where he's explaining that before testosterone treatments, she (at that point) would be on the subway and see a woman and think, "oh, she's attractive...what's that book she's reading...i'd like to meet her..." a whole narrative would go through her head. After she began taking the testosterone and becoming a male, there was no narritive, no language at all. He'd see a woman with an attractive quality and basically his mind would just be flooded with images of sex! That ladies, is what it's like to be a man!

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Old 09-18-09, 01:22 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by pacificaslim View Post
BTW, there is indeed a difference between acting crudely and just having normal male thoughts. It certainly is unacceptable for men to make rude comments, say, about what they'd like to do to a woman they just saw: even if it would be "normal" for them to think such a thought to themselves!
I figure most guys are busy having normal male thoughts, but I also figure that what distinguishes a mature male from an immature one is that the mature male knows to keep his mouth shut and typing fingers still when he does have normal male thoughts ... and the immature one just blurts things out.
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Old 09-18-09, 02:01 AM
  #38  
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Agreed!

(fwiw, i think some of these guys are just posting "is she hot?" to be the first one to say it, like it's the new catch phrase around here. you know, like "flip it," or "pics or it didn't happen," or whatever else people always write).
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Old 09-18-09, 02:18 AM
  #39  
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While there's much I could quote and comment on on this thread, I'll just start with this.

Originally Posted by Machka View Post
You're new here so you probably don't know ... but it has always been like this. I guess that's what comes of allowing teenagers and college kids into a forum. The youngsters look at women merely as sexual objects ... they don't take women seriously at all. Some, but not all, grow out of that attitude as they become more mature.
Much of it I think is maturity, when it comes to both men and women. It just depends on where you go. Overall, though, I do tend to believe that in places like BF and elsewhere (I've observed it in both with regards to women), men tend to be less mature on which of their thoughts they choose to vocalize. That being said, I've drawn cat-calls occasionally (as a clyde no doubt! I'm not really in much way attractive in that regard) from women while I was out on the bike. So (and I would have to defer to women who are brave enough to admit their thoughts), I would say the thoughts are there for most people in regard to the opposite sex. It's just maybe that men tend to be less socialized on when to speak their thoughts and not speak their thoughts, and perhaps that is divided by age, marriage, and genuine contact with women as people and not as sex objects. There's a time and place for such comments and they usually are not out in public.

Much is probably perspective on hearing those things as well. I understand that most women really don't find such comments welcome. Yet I find in observation that a lot of men tend to take them with a degree of flattery. As for me in the example above (women saying things in public), I tended to think it a bit wierd, unwelcome in a sense, but also a bit flattering. The unwelcome part, because in a certain way, I would rather have them come from someone who knows me and can appreciate me. Again the proper social context.

Originally Posted by Machka View Post
And ... I have my doubts that most male road riders (or at least the teenager/college crowd) want more female involvement in our great sport, or care one way or the other. Perhaps the idea of women doing as well or better than them on the bicycle is somehow threatening.
A lot of this, I'm sure, is due to ego. Maybe socially ingrained, maybe otherwise. As for me (the only one I can really speak for), I notice that if there is anything that can be equal on a non-competitive basis as to ability, it's cycling. So a woman can do better than me? So what. As long as I'm achieving what I need to do for myself while I'm out on the bike, I'm pleased.

Besides, the world is much better when there's variety and all of us (men and women) are out there doing things. I find it interesting to read about women out there doing cycling and achieving (yes including the women on BF, but also competitively). Maybe it's because it's not so common-place. If I got anything out of such threads like the "Hot Cycling Body" one, it's a little more awareness about some of the women who are out there doing it.

Speaking of this, I got a question, but I'll make another thread of it.
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Old 09-18-09, 02:21 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by umd View Post
There are a handful of women that come on the faster rides in town. They pretty much act like "one of the guys" most of the time. One of them has the foulest mouth of any of us
that happens in most other male dominated areas. it's a shame some women feel they have to stoop to the level of the lowest of the males. i don't like vulgar boorish males. i don't like it when someone who isn't one pretends to be one. Be yourself. if people don't like you, they can go f themselves.
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Old 09-18-09, 02:35 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by SendMoreChris View Post
As a forum who recognizes the want, and need, for more female involvement in our great sport
Do we?
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Old 09-18-09, 02:41 AM
  #42  
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It would be nice if there were more women in cycling, but it will always be 90% male. Any sport that's 90% male will have a men's locker room element to it.

Oh well. Another advantage to being Gay I can never avail myself of.
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Old 09-18-09, 02:46 AM
  #43  
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What sport isn't mostly male?

The premise of the argument is fallacious.

Why do we want or need more women? 1) Increase market share. 2) To improve the dating pool

Seems both are typical male thought anyway. I question the OP's motives.
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Old 09-18-09, 05:52 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
I figure most guys are busy having normal male thoughts, but I also figure that what distinguishes a mature male from an immature one is that the mature male knows to keep his mouth shut and typing fingers still when he does have normal male thoughts ... and the immature one just blurts things out.


There is nothing wrong with sexual expression and it has nothing to do with maturity level.

Who appointed you the judge of what is a normal thought and what defines maturity?
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Old 09-18-09, 06:02 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
What prompts a guy to say something like, "Was she hot" in response to a thread?
SOME guys are just asses.......
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Old 09-18-09, 06:29 AM
  #46  
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Such a load of ****. I see plenty of women respond the same way to pictures of brad pitt, or some other guy without a shirt.
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Old 09-18-09, 06:30 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
such a load of ****. I see plenty of women respond the same way to pictures of brad pitt, or some other guy without a shirt.
+1
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Old 09-18-09, 06:36 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by machka View Post
i figure most guys are busy having normal male thoughts, but i also figure that what distinguishes a mature male from an immature one is that the mature male knows to keep his mouth shut and typing fingers still when he does have normal male thoughts ... And the immature one just blurts things out.
+1
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Old 09-18-09, 06:37 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
What sport isn't mostly male?
Field Hockey (at least in the US)
Synchronized Swimming
Baton Twirling
Cheerleading
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Old 09-18-09, 06:38 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Hormones.

In our case, it's called Testosterone.
Wrong. "Hormones" are no excuse for not being a pig. "Was she hot?" is one of MANY behaviors that are threatening to women in sports, not just in cycling. Men in sport are VERY good at letting women know that they are not allowed to participate for their own gratification, and they certainly can't expect to be taken seriously as riders or athletes in their own right. Instead the message, both here and on the road, is that women who cycle are there to be appreciated by men as sexual objects. Gee, what a welcoming environment!

I'm just disgusted by this excuse - that your testosterone completely intervenes in your brain functions and commands your fingers to type "Was she hot?", then click the "Post Reply" button.

You're a human friggin' being. So control yourself. The real problem is not "testosterone," it's that you don't want to be seen as potentially considering women to be, you know, fellow human beings with opinions and feelings and stuff that don't revolve around making you happy or turning you on.
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