Fair enough but again to imply that saddle position is independent of torso/leg length (which your reply above does) I think doesn't hold true 100% of the time. I'm only suggesting that what works for you works for you and may not work for everyone. I do think femur length has some impact on overall saddle position and comfort.

re: KOPS. This is an endless debate here on BF. However, looking at some pictures of pros actually on their bikes (not just their bikes) it seems many are close to KOPS. Obviously it's tough to tell from pictures that aren't perfectly taken for this purpose but most of them appear to have knee/pedal closely aligned.

A lot of good info here. I've read all the literature linked in this thread. I'm of the really short femur and long torso type. I use a setback seat post. I adjusted my saddle setback/height to where I could get in the drops comfortably and release my hands without my body falling forward. This has stretched me out and it feels very comfortable to me. However, I can definitely feel a difference when I pedal. I'm used to being right on top of my pedals and now it feels like I'm pedaling from behind if that makes sense. I don't know if this is good or bad.

now this is confusing me. I've read about this idea of letting go and being able to hover the hands above, but in this thread i have read it should be done on the tops and you are now saying you do it on the drops. I had assumed it would be done on the hoods since that is the position that gets most use. Which is it?

depends on what you want in your position and your physical strength.

I'm guessing that's the french and eddy way, which stretches out your back, making it flatter and more aero without putting weight on your arms.

stretching out too much hurts my lower back. i was on a ride and it started to hurt so i edged the seat forward little bit until my back was comfortable. next ride i had no back pain at all from start to finish.

It's about finding the right hip angle. KOPS can be a decent first guess, but is otherwise meaningless. You find the right hip angle for yourself and maintain it. On an MTB, you'll be way up in front, so the saddle needs to go back to rotate your hips (centered about the bb spindle) and maintain the angle. On a TT bike, you're super low, so it needs to come forward. All the positions in between... are in between.

Pros do a lot of things I would never do. Just because "a pro" who rides 20,000+ mi/year is comfortable in a certain position does not mean recreational (or even local racers) who ride maybe 5,000 mi/year will be. Fit is an individual thing and generalizations are decent starting points, but in order to truly develop the best fit, you must work with a fitter in person. Not over the internet and not by looking at pictures of "euro pros." Plus, it has been mentioned that pros generally ride frames that are "too small" for their heigh meaning they use very setback posts and long stems. If they sized up, they could achieve the same position with less setback and shorter stems.

So what is the reason that pros size down? Have we reached a consensus?

it's more comfortable to sit further back as the majority of your weight goes to your legs, rather than your crotch and arms.

the most extreme example would be the recumbent.

lighter?
can get the stem positioned lower thanks to the lower head tube?

Dave, with respect, I think it is you who is missing the point of my post. You seem to fail to recognise the difference between KOPS as a riding point and KOPS as a reference point. The former has no validity other than as an empirical solution for a relatively harmless beginning bike fit in the absence of a proper fit. I never claimed otherwise. The second is an absolute and a useful means of comparison between different frame geometry, seatpost etc. for a given rider.( The only way to avoid KOPS as a reference point is to get off the bike.) I even used the term "the KOPS easy-to-measure reference point" to forestall this misunderstanding. Obviously I was unsuccessful.

I fully agree with your point about longer torsos requiring a more rearward position (in relation to the dreaded KOPS!) to improve balance.

BF has to be some sort of cosmic joke. Let us in on it, Tom. Please.

It can be done either way. Obviously, the hands on the hooks position is more extreme. If you have little weight on your hands in that position, you've exceeded what's required for the brake hood position.

It is not necessary to work with a fitter to get a good position on the bike. A fitter can only look at the rider and take measurements. It's the rider who knows what the changes feel like and any rider with some experience can make adjustments himself and evaluate the results. Eddy Merckx was constantly tweaking his position - by himself, not on the advice of a fitter.

Frame size, by itself has no effect on the seatpost setback. That's entirely a function of the seat tube angle. The next size smaller frame might have a steeper STA or it might not. It depends on the brand and which size you're dropping down from. Cervelos all have the same 73 degree STA, so a smaller frame would not need more setback on the post.

You can even find examples where the reach is nearly identical on two frames sizes because the manufacturer increased the STA by one degree on the smaller size, while reducing the TT length by 1cm and the reach ends up the same, once the saddle is set to the same position, relative to the BB. The only thing that changes is the length of the head tube being 2cm shorter, so the bars can be postioned lower.

It isn't necessary to work with a fitter, but if the OP has to ask about fit on BF, a good fitter may be in order - it will certainly be better than asking for advice on bike forums.

You're right as far as frame size goes, but generally, STAs get less steep as sizes increase, which is why a lot of smaller sized bikes have very steep STAs.

That being said, I still think it is wrong to look at how "pros" setup their bikes to figure out how to set up yours.

I think AEO had the correct answer. A lighter (and stiffer) frame that allows the bars to go lower. You don't often see that small frame with a 2cm spacer stack or a rising stem. The stems are often 73 (-17) degrees with no spacers.

I agree that trying to duplicate a "pro" fit will not work for most, as it will leave most casual riders who lack the flexibility and core strength of the pros in pain from being too low / too stretched out. However, I also think attention needs to be paid to the setback used by most pros because there must a good reason most pros choose to have a decent amount of setback, which based on my understanding is to achieve a balanced position allowing them to generate most power over a long period of time. This also implies that having the right amount of setback will help any rider, pro or not.

Let me share some of my personal experiences on this subject, for what it is worth. Like many beginner riders, I started road cycling on a cheap, used road bike that was too big for me, resulting in reach issues. Not knowing much about bike fit, and not really having the time and desire to look too much into it, my solution to this problem was to get a shorter stem (80mm) at first, but when that didn't alleviate the reach issues, I also switched to a zero-setback seatpost. I was now happier on the bike, and assumed my positioning was pretty good because I had no major discomfort and was able to take part and keep up with most fast local rides.

After getting out of grad school, I decided to get a nicer bike which fit me without having to resort to a 80mm stem. This time, I ended up choosing a bike with an aggressive geometry (I didn't really know any better) and put my zero-setback post on this bike as well (really liked the Thomson post, what can I say). This bike had a decent amount of saddle to handlebar drop, which in turn caused some neck pain. When the pain never really went away, I decided to get a fit for the first time. The fitter ended up going from the ~2cm of saddle tip-BB distance I came in with to ~7.5cm by the time we were done. And with that simple change, the saddle to handlebar drop was not an issue any more. I also realized I was able to utilize my hamstrings much better in this laid-back position. Now, I attribute having the right setback to allow me to ride with this fairly large drop comfortably (and I am not a very flexible person):



Your experience may vary.

The main topic of this discussion is saddle setback, rather than the total pro-fit, that includes a radical drop and reach. The pros know that you need ample setback to tolerate a large drop (to be aerodynamic) and it may result in more efficient use of the leg muscles, as well.

One of my main points is that one initial fitting error (a too-forward saddle) results in the need for more errors that attempt to correct the first mistake - a short stem and little saddle to bar drop. If recreational riders get started with adequate setback, they won't have the other problems that follow.

My personal approach is to use no more reach than it takes for me to avoid knee to arm interference when I'm pedaling in an aggressive descending position. Since I have a very short torso, there's a fine balance between achieving knee to arm clearance and having too much reach when riding with my hands on the brake hoods. Those with longer torsos (the majority) don't have as great a problem, since their shoulders are further forward.

The amount of drop that I choose is quite arbitrary. I used 9cm for many years, then increased it to 11cm, just two years ago (at age 55). I could be comfortable over a large range of drops. I even tried 12cm once, but it just wasn't comfortable when descending mountains. Craning my neck for 20-30 minutes at a time wasn't tolerable. The 11cm drop I can tolerate. I could use 5-7cm too. It's not like there's some magic amount that only a fit guru can figure out.

I still don't get it I am afraid - to move the saddle backwards results in less leaning on your arms? Your torso is leaning more forward, so that must result in more pressure on your arms?

Read the article from Peter White, linked in post #6. It is a fact that moving the saddle further back balances your weight over the saddle so you will have less weight on your hands. With the saddle in the proper position, you should find that you can hover you hands over the brake hoods, or at least ride with a single finger tip supporting your weight.

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

Hi DaveSSS; thank you for your reply; i will test that rightaway - Actually i ride painfree after a year's struggle with especially pressure issues - at this stage I just like to fine tune the seat position.
What did struck me that my saddle has these markings on one side of the rails - My setback seat clamp does not fully fit within these markings but extend on the back. That'll may mean my seat is too far forward possibly/ and maybe not safe too...

tested it...
Well I must say, the test indeed proved that moving my seat backwards does indded results in less arm/wrist pressure...
I 'just moved my saddle backwards about 10mmm. have to try it while riding off course -however, thank you all.

+1

I gotta agree and disagree at the same time. If the OP is riding fine with no issues, I agree. However, if there is discomfort, I think a fitter is a good thing. We can't self asses how we are riding - someone else needs to look at it. In fact, I'm willing to be most pros probably have/do work with a fitter at some point. Nothing wrong with a good fitter. When I was fit, I had hand and foot issues. They are now gone. And my saddle was moved FORWARD.

Setback is independent of drop IMO.

Just curious but why did you change it?

Again, and nobody has called me out on this yet, stop looking at how pro bikes look. Rather, look at how pros look on their bikes if you believe they have ideal fit. Most pictures I was able to find look like the pros are close to KOPS when ON their bikes. Who cares if it's set back or non-set back that gets them there... they're close. There will always be exceptions and everyone is different but I really don't like this notion that zero set back posts are this terrible thing.

robncircus...

You only need a fitter if you're uneducated about fitting and/or don't own a large mirror or any equipment to make your own video. I've never had any major fit issues and never been to a fitter. There are so many good resources both in books and on the internet, that all you have to do is a little study to figure out the cure for most problems. I've posted links to several articles that are valuable.

I've never stated that setback and drop are interlinked, but with enough setback, you can tolerate more drop. Leaning further over won't place a heavy load on your hands, if you're back far enough.

I can't imagine how moving a saddle forward would ever solve hand and foot issues, but if you say so.

I changed my saddle to bar drop for no other reason than to see how it felt. The lower position should be more aerodynamic. That's why the pros use a lot of drop. I also use a low torso angle for climbing. Some people have lower back issues with a lot of drop, but I never have. It doesn't create any problem when riding with my hands in the hooks. I probably spend more time continually in the hooks than the average riders, since I do a lot of 10 mile mountain descents (4-5 times a week) and I'm in the hooks the whole time.

Just keep in mind that moving the saddle back also increases your reach. That might be no problem if your reach is on the short side to start with. A short reach and/or higher bars are often a "cure" for too much weight on your hands. Moving the saddle back can take care of the short reach and the hand discomfort at the same time.

Let's just agree to disagree I look forward to our discussion again in a month or so when another OP doesn't utilize the search. Have a good weekend.

I would only add that the best fitter is someone you ride with, who knows how bikes should fit (usually a racer) who can look at you on the bike, while you are riding in different conditions. That is the best person to give you an educated opinion on your fit and your form. I ask my buddies to critique my fit all the time. (Not that I take all their advice, but they definitely have pointed out some things I didn't see.)

I would never rely on someone who measures me, measures my bike, looks at me for 5 minutes on a trainer, then plugs some numbers into a program to get the "magical" fit.