the cranks are different. The chain rings are different. The Red RD has full carbon cages instead of just 1 plate like force, and the brakes are different as well. Ceramic pulleys yes - as for BB - as mentioned the ceramic option is available for all SRAM cranks just like the steel ones are available for all cranks - even Red. Don't forget the ever CAD/CAM-tastic 1090 cassette over the Force/Rival 1070 Cassette, Ti front derail cage that flexes like a young gymnast. .....and zero-loss.....but yeah....Zero-loss is the only real difference.....if you ignore almost all of the other parts of the group that is...

In all seriousness though Zero-Loss is the one feature that I recommend to all of my clients to splurge for. The rest I usually spec out as Force and Rival mix. Personally the 1090 cassettes have worked their way into my personal setups and I ended up with Red chain rings on my Quarq.

So a hollowed-out cassette doesn't count I guess.

Cognitive dissonance--no point convincing you of being incorrect, once again.

So by going with Red shifters and rest Force would you say that you will have a setup just as good as full Red if not better because you no longer have the insanely flexy FD that comes with Red? From a performance standpoint is Red worth twice the price of Force?

Even though the question was not directed towards me, I'll tale a moment to jump on the trollbait and just say, "no".

This whole sport is not worth the price from a performance standpoint. It's cheaper to buy a pair or running shoes but that sport is even more pointless.

I have two bikes outfitted with Red but one has a Force FD, no difference. I also have a bike with Rival (but Red crank and RD); again, no performance difference.

Conclusion--if you want to be cheap, get Apex.

Here's a link to some pretty good photos of the yellow Red. And according to the SRAM website, they issued them to four riders, "Alberto Contador (Astana), Lance Armstrong (RadioShack), Carlos Sastre (Cervelo TT), and Oscar Pereiro (Astana - here but not racing)."

Schlek's bike has been sporting the yellow Red group as well on his yellow SL3 the past week that he has been with the yellow jersey.

It's hard for me to answer because the pricing structure I pay.

IMHO - I really like some of the Force gear. I would definitely take Force crank over Rival - having put a ton of miles on both. most of the other parts are close enough in price between Rival and Force that you just choose the one you want. Brakes - I used to hate when people saved $ on the brakes thinking no one would notice, but I do recommend to people that they buy Rival. That said tonight I noticed the flex in my Rival calipers and thought - "hey...maybe I should try the redesign in Red or Force".....

Saying that you notice a difference in performance.....kind of esoteric. All three groups are very nice. The Red RD is absolutely crazy light and reactive but for the $$ - Force. FD - I have never cared. Crisp shifts = good. I have never run into a FD in any "decent" group that hasn't performed as needed. Pick the weight and look you want for the $$.

Meh...I guess I am rambling now.

This is what I spec for my clients:

Shifters: Red
RD: Force
FD: Force/Rival
Cassette: 1070 (Rival/Force)
Crank: 2010 Force
BB: Truvativ Steel BB
Brake Calipers: Rival
Chain: KMC DX10
Cables: Yokozuna Reaction

That is the first thing I noticed when "that" happened tonight. I heard Bobke say, "Missed shift" and I zeroed in on the levers - SRAM.....and they were Yellow. My first thought was..."Looks like operator error to me.... "

I was trying to figure that out. Didn't look like he shifted the front. Looked like something went wrong in the back. Then he tried to prop the chain back up by shifting the front and it didn't seem to work (too bad, that works 95% of the time for me).


Anyway, I figure SRAM is working on something major. Campy went 11 (and apparently no one cared). Shimano went electric (not sure how much people care, I'm guessing it'll pick up steam when it doesn't cost more than the rest of your bike put together). What's SRAM gonna do, continue to be a few grams lighter? Nah, they've got to do something interesting. I kind of hope they build a good electric system and price it about where Red is now.

Other than more gears, electric assist I'm not sure what would excite me personally. I could care less about the drivetrain getting much lighter. Not sure I actually care about having another cog either.

I was thinking the same thing about Andy. Didn't look like he shifted and it looked like the drivetrain jammed - his pedals stopped moving. I would say a chain link problem but he fixed it and went on. Maybe he finished it with a bent chain link.

as for the rest -

Shimano and Campy have put a ton of years into Electric. campy has been working on it since the late 80's and has had a lot of prototypes that have been seen out in the pro ranks. That's a ton of R&D for SRAm to take on at this point. My guess is that they will wait a few years to see what problems Shimano has and design around them from the start.

all of the reactions I have heard about electric is that it will be here to stay as soon as the price comes down. Meh....

As for now - I don't see any reason why anyone would chase campy on the 11. There just isn't the need/market.

SRAM holds very high performing, light groups that are priced well below Shimano and Campy. What are they supposed to improve? they keep coming out with small additions and changes that really are great add-ons. Keep in mind they are also Zipp too. They have been pumping out a lot of new product.

Personally I would like to see a revision of the 1090 cassette to more like the XX cassette.....and...uh....Zero loss to Force and Rival.......then i am at a loss. Just don't know what else i would like to see from them.