TripleCrank

Meaningless? Hardly! Look at my crank, a triple. Look at my frame, tig welded steel. Look at my weight, not optimal.

LOOK AT MY SOUL, HUGE! And that's why I'll drop ya like the souless dude that you are!

Avalanche325

Materials, construction, engneering, and manufacturing have come a long way in 20 years. Something being hand made does not always make it better. Using the construction methods of yesteryear is simply old technology. Modern methods lend themselves to greater strength, lighter weight, and a more consistant quality product.

I love classic cars. However, there is no need to manufacture them today. They used to make cars by hand too. Yes, they were works of art, but they were certainly not better in any way.

teamawe

I'll take a handmade car from the 20's over a current model Buick any day! I disagree that based on the era a product was made that it lacks quality because it wasn’t made with modern techniques. Granted there is better steel and alloys in use today. But the love an artisan put into hand-stitching leather for a seat, picking out just the right piece of wood for a dashboard, filing and engraving each lug of a frameset as tho he was making it for his only child, this just cant be replaced by a machine.

Now as many have said on this thread, this visceral emotion some of us feel for the rare or well done is a personal thing. I also think that an inanimate object having soul or mojo or being sexy or whatever is based not only on the way we feel for it ourselves, but also by the knowledge that others appreciate it too. Some call this the 'elitist's club'. I think of it more as a group of folks that share a passion.

Would you covet a Monet or a Picasso if nobody else had ever seen any of their paintings?

2Rodies

So you wouldn't want a Ferrari or a pre-996 Porsche? These cars are hand made.

jslopez

What's interesting is the need of man to create some sort of segragation from another group. Italian vs. American, Shimano vs. Campy, Double vs. Triple, Old sChool Vs. New, Steel vs. Carbon, Black Vs. White.

THe last example being the extreme exaple but I do sense a similar vein of maliciousness in these posts that I can't understand.

So they're different from you, why is that so bad?

Dave Moulton

After building bicycle frames for more than thirty years it became second nature to me. For example when you heat metal it expands and when it cools again it contracts; this will cause a frame to go out of alignment. In time I got to know which way a frame would go and would actually build it out of alignment so it would end up in alignment after it cooled. I could consistently braze frames and they would always be within 10 or 15 thousandths of an inch of true alignment after brazing when checked on a surface table.

The amount I set the frame out of alignment before brazing was not a measured amount; it was a feeling. Also I was passionate about building frames. Now you are telling me that a skilled welder in Taiwan for example who does a really good job, but doesn’t really care if he welds bicycles or patio furniture as long as he can feed his family. You are saying the frame that man builds will ride the same as mine?

Even if his frame is every bit as straight as mine, there will be a difference in the feel of the bike. The difference is not something you can measure and neither can anyone explain what it is; I believe it is what people have been referring to here as the ‘soul’ of the bike.

Now you can say I’m full of sh*t if you like but I say an old classic car has a soul too; it is as if it has life whereas something new built by robots definitely does not.

teamawe

I really like coffee.

I can taste the difference between different beans, roasts and grinds. My telling you that I prefer my coffee over yours isnt malicious, its just a statement of my opinion. Useing rhetoric to explain my preference in an attempt to aid your understanding may be a losing battle, but I'm happy to share my passion and in the end, I still like my coffee just as much. =)

jslopez

I probaby should have quantified my statement as obviously it doesn't apply to everyone posting their opinions, my apologies if you felt it was in any way directed to you.

I was just going back to the original title and the concept of "lowering one's standards" because they chose a Trek or something similar. I have no qualms on you liking a certain kind of coffee. You can even sing praises about it, but when someone instead goes, "Eww, your coffee is crap" (not necessarily you) then it's then the intent is just to offend another person.

Eurastus

I'd like to add a few comments here.

I'm an old guy...well old enough to remember when the first Dave Moulton Fuso bikes came out. Oh, how I wanted one of his custom bikes, but had no money. Now, when I have the money to spend, I can't find a "classic" lugged steel frameset that I want to buy.

And so many of the other nice semi-production or especially full custom bikes I remember from the mid-80's are gone as well. There's still Richard Sachs to be had, if you can stand the wait; I believe Roland Della Santa still builds a few on rare occasion (he was my "local" builder when I grew up in the Reno area 20+ years ago). I'm sure there are some others, but they don't have the mystique for me personally that I wanted.

I toyed with the idea of asking Richard Sachs to build me one. The price didn't scare me off as much as the two and a half year lead-time he's now running. I simply wasn't patient enough. I needed something to ride now; my previous bike was 14 years old and had seen many better days.

I went with a Ritchey Road Logic production frame this past season. It's steel, but not lugged. Made by Toyo in Japan--a mix of TIG welded and fillet-brazed joints that look as good as I could hope for. Very low production; the guy at Ritchey tells me they sell only a few dozen a year (that was important to me). It was priced very well, even with a custom paint job, and I had it in my hands within a few weeks after I placed the order (most of the delay was because of the paint).

I love it. It rides great. Built up with Campy Record 10 and lots of Ritchey parts, it weighs 17.5 lbs. Stiff on the climbs but doesn't beat me up on a century ride. It looks very, very sharp. I really can't find a single fault in the bike. Not one. This is still the best bike I've ever owned. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Really.

However, it's not really what I want in the end. I've still got something stuck in my head about a fully custom Richard Sachs frame. The good thing is, that now I have something to ride while I begin the long wait.

Is there anything wrong with my present ride? Nope. Is there any reason I should want a Sachs? Nope, not really. Nevertheless, I do. My buddy here at work spends all his money on his '69 Ford Bronco. One fellow plays golf like a maniac. My brother collects "Star Wars" figures, of all things. Go figure.

I want to put my money into an old-school, classic, traditional, lugged steel road frame.

I could never ride a Trek, Cannondale, Seven, or Giant. Maybe I’d consider a Rivendell touring bike, but never anything mass-produced or trendy. Lots of my riding buddies have bikes like that. I've got nothing against them or their bikes. We have good times together. They're just not for me. I'd rather have something just like Dave described in the post that kicked off this thread.

Do I have a good reason for any of this? No, I don't. Nevertheless, that's just the kind of bike I like.

khuon

I'm not sure I would lump Seven in with Trek, Cannondale or Giant. There's nohing wrong with the latters but I don't think the former fits into the same category. Maybe Seven is sort of trendy though... I don't know.

Eurastus

You're right. Seven isn't quite as bad. However, I must have seen a dozen of them on the last century ride I did...out of about 250 riders. I take that as being trendy...

khuon

Well Seven may be trendy. I have seen quite a few here too but I'd differentiate them from Trek, C-Dale and Giant because they're handmade and custom frames.

jkoman

Dave...I believe that your quotes about "soul" are heartfelt and as a result are true. I also believe that that comes from within you and not from the object. While I believe this I acknowledge you may not agree. I always wanted one or all of three bikes...a Klein, an Eisentraut, or a Masi. All three of these were bikes that I read about and dreamed about. Now I can afford any bike I want...haven't gotten a "traut" or Masi yet but I recently purchased a 2001 Klein QPro Carbon and am now riding it. I love this bike...I ride faster on this bike. It is a great bike that I connect with well...I believe this goes back to my original desire...I believe that I project my soul to this bike rather than it projecting a soul to me...just my opinion...perhaps it reciprocates... even though it could be considered somewhat of a production bike by some standards. Maybe I just haven't owned a bike with soul yet??? Perhaps you have an old Moulton/Fuso 58 laying around that needs some exercise? By the way my buddy always wanted a Fuso or a Masi made by Moulton.

VintageSteve

When I was racing, I wasn't looking for a bike with "soul" in it. I jumped from one frame to another, Italian, French, Japanese, nothing custom. I wouldn't have known what 'soul' was if someone had tried to explain it to me.
30 years later I ride a Moulton and because of my experience, I know that it has "life" in it (Lack of any better word doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I am perceptive to this, whereas back then I wouldn't have been. A part of Dave is inherent in his creation. I ride a Pinarello from the same period and it is different; the more experience you have the more you can feel this. When I was racing I didn't have the capacity to understand this, all I wanted was to be first up the climbs.
The thing that is different now is that back in the early 80's you were riding something not much different from the 70's. There was an established tradition. Things changed slowly, components and frames. They were simple, functional, and in the case of custom, beautiful.
Today things from components to frames change so often and quickly that there isn't time for anything to get established, to build a history, a tradition. The only legacy you have is one of change. Is this demanded by the riders or the makers?
I like my bike's simple elegance. And that the soul of it's builder resides in it.

55/Rad

Eurastus - don't know if you are familiar with them, but I would recommend checking into Vanilla Bikes.

www.vanillabicycles.com

The owner/builder, Sacha White, is gaining a reputation as an incredible artisan. I think you will find the soul you are seeking.

55/Rad

lotek 

Eurastus, also check into Dave Kirk frames https://www.kirkframeworks.com/
very nice frames indeed.
If you are looking for innovative lugwork check out
Kirk Pacenti's gallery to see who is doing what with his lugs.
https://www.bikelugs.com/pacentidesign.html

Marty

zacster

Being the owner of two classic steel roadies, one a custom built for me Davidson, all lugged, brazed steel, and the other an Italian frame from Italo Zilioli, also all lugged brazed steel (both columbus SL), this one with Campy SR pantograph, I still lust after a new CF bike, with Shimano components. But whenever I look at them, I get the sense that riding them won't be like it felt when I got on my Davidson the first time. Yes, it'll be fast and stiff and comfortable. But it won't be special.

I'm always the only one now on club rides with the classic steel frame. I was always the only one back then on a Zilioli, with the yellow matte paint job. Back then, there were lots of Davidsons in Seattle, but we all knew we had something special. I still ride both bikes, switching off every month or so for the heck of it. I have one new pair of 9sp wheels that I use on both, but I still have the old sew-ups.

When my wife wanted a bike about 15 years ago, we looked and settled on a C'dale, a lower end bike. They said all the Cdale frames are made the same, but the higher end ones got the best frames, and the rest were made into the low end bikes. I've ridden it maybe 2 or 3 times, and I can't stand the ride. It just feels generic. I just have this fear that buying a new CF bike will be the same.

don d.

It will, but that won't slow you down.

Maj.Taylor

Dave, you're right. Craftsmanship (a.k.a. artwork) is a dying concern for buyers when it comes to bikes these days. Marketing (and being like Lance) now prevails--and that usually means supply "enough" bike for as much money as possible, or at market-researched "price points." I would give anything to have one of your chrome-lugged beauties. If it were around today, I'd not even ride it, but hang it on a wall as a true work of art.

I remember when tig-welding came along. Yes, we old-timers laughed at it back then. The welds were ugly, and are still ugly as a rule. The only thing that makes a tig-welded frame "beautiful" these days is the quality of the visible weld. I'm with you--welds should be invisible. I'd love to see my Litespeed fillet-brazed although it supposedly has welds to die for. And given its already light weight, I wouldn't mind adding a pound or so for a few of your hand-filed chrome lugs.

Bikes were once functional artwork. More often than not these days, they are now mere equipment--at artwork prices. When I paid for custom frames back in the 80s, I knew I was paying someone for their very valuable time. And, the craftsmen truly cared about both me and the bikes they were building for me. But unfortunately, you are right. I'm not sure if either of my two previous frame builders ever received the amount of money their frames were really worth. No, their frames weren't cheap, but they also discovered they couldn't make a living and feed their kids "caring" about each customer's order.

I guess those few who somehow found a compromise between fully hands-on and a measure of mass production survived. However, that did indeed mean substantial capital investments, lines of credit for cash flow, and worrying about apprentice employees (and their quality of work). I'm not sure if I could ever blame you for getting out of the business, but I wish your frames were still available. Why do you think I freaked out when I saw your name and asked if you were really Dave Moulton? It's because your frames could never ever be forgotten once I saw them. (And you thought you'd been forgotten. Hah!) Who will freak out at seeing nothing more than the name of Trek, and the unknown/unnamed people who built it, over ten years after production ceases?

Berodesign

I really want a Dave Moulton bike also, preferably one of his English production. And if I had one, then I would ride it and ride it and ride it... not put it up on the wall. I agree they are pieces of art, but also pieces of engineering. And I think that Dave built his bikes to be used... and that is the way atleast I show my love to something, I use it.

I am building a road bike now on a Kotter-frame, and man I am going to cry when I first put it out on the road with all the NOS parts never used before. But I know, after that first ride, I'll never want to stop riding it again, even if it means its ultimate destruction by wear. After all, not using a bike is like not living your life because sooner or later it / we will die.

Dave Moulton

The ‘dave moulton’ custom frames built in England in the 1970s were functional but it wasn’t until I came to the US that competition from Masi and the other American builders made me start paying attention to the fine detail.

Many people don’t realize how few of these frames were built. In 1982 while still working in the Masi shop I built 69. In 1983 I moved into my own frameshop in San Marcos, CA. and built 96; in addition I built approx 200 John Howard frames. I was working 18 hour days back then trying to get my business off the ground.

In 1984 Fuso production started and the number of custom frames built dropped dramatically to 39. In 1985 only 9 were built and in1986 only 3. A grand total of 216.

Most people who own them have done so since new and won’t part with them. Occasionally you will see one on ebay. One went about four months back (56cm.) for $380. With original paint and Campy Record.

The John Howard was a very nice frame with chrome and paint comparable to my custom frame. It was under priced when it was new, which was one of the reasons it didn’t last long. There were some 3,000 Fuso frames built, and another frame called ‘Recherche’ about 150 of those.

zensuit

Those are stunning

zensuit

It's kind of funny how Cannondale has gone from an upstart, progressive bike builder that brought very light, stiff frames to racers who otherwise wouldn't have had a race worthy bike because they couldn't afford the marquee names, to a company that people see as evidence of an unfeeling corporate robot-shop. 'dales were an "outsiders" bike for many years before they became one of the "big 3"

zacster

I vaguely recall that Cannondale was a large production from the start, making low end and high end bikes. I also remember Klein suing Cdale for making large tube aluminum bikes, which he was producing before Cdale came on the scene. In any case, I've always though of Cdale as being a mass produced, but specialty, bike.

don d.

Cannondales actually had a "cool factor" to race and ride on when they first started. I had a a black one that I stripped all the decals off and stuck a WWF Panda Bear sticker on the headtube. It had all Campagnolo Gran Sport with titanium rear derailluer pivot polts. Loved that bike. It rocked, pun intended.

At the same time I owned that bike, I had an Angel Rodriguez road bike with the first Dura Ace indexing group. The Cannondale was a great crash and burn race bike and the Rodriguez was my long distance bike. The Rodriguez was very comfy over the long haul.

Kleins were nice but very high priced at the time. Until Klein worked all the bugs out of his heat treatment process, the early Kleins had a subtle bow to the top tupe. Cannondales never quite matched that.