Good question. Hey, they got big marketing out of all that. In Europe. Last time I checked the USPS doesn't do much of its business in Europe. Of course with Lance winning all those Tours they arguably got more than $32 million worth of exposure. I'm sure we all mailed more letters because Lance was winning bike races.

Taking PEDs isn't a criminal offense. Defrauding a government agency (the Postal Service) out of millions of dollars in sponsorship dough with race results helped by fraudulent means becomes racketeering. Using team sponsor money to buy PED's by putting it through secret bank accounts becomes another felony (money laundering). It's not the PEDs they're getting him on, it's the criminal fraud aspect. Again, had this suspected offense been perpetrated on a private corporation nobody would be investigating anything.

Let me play defense attorney;

<Denny Crane mode>
The USPS paid money for good publicity of a successful team, and that is what they got.
Had the team not doped, USPS would have had the distinction of
sponsoring the most losing team out there.
In that case, they would not have gotten what they were paying for.
</Denny Crane mode>

I agree and it is so sad. I'm a 50+er and when I played high school football, 240 pounders were lineman, not running backs. So I care about kids on PED's. If your kid is gonna win that scholarship, he/she will have to take this. What a bunch of crap. No testing? Why not test all the kids on the winning teams and take away the trophies if one student fails the test. It don't stop there. Gotta win that pro contract. Some pro athletes have come forward later in life to tell their story and how ped's have ruined their lives by turning their hearts to mush. It is just so sad.

Who knows how accurate the numbers are, but they claim they got $103.6 million in domestic value out of the deal. (https://www.denverpost.com/outdoors/ci_17102119) Who knows how much they got in Europe. JV explains how some of this works here.

Every business needs to advertise. USPS does a lot more than just mail letters, though it is difficult to get that message across on a cycling jersey.

Quite. When the bodies and honest careers began to pile up beneath the bus, that's when you have to take notice and begin demanding accountability, even exact some punishment. It's an age old human drama I liken to a pendulum - swinging back and forth between the black and white of right and wrong.

When I met Floyd Landis atop a local climb a few months back, I took a picture with him and one of his riding companions, who was the one who invited me to pose with them. I said, "Pose with a TDF winner? Absolutely!" When they guffawed and snorted at that, I said, "That's right. You heard me." My regard for Floyd climbs higher and higher with every denial by LA and his hacks.

I mailed letters to myself describing how awesome Lance's ride was on that day's stage. In triplicate.

If they got $103.6 million in value for their $32M, then how can they say the were defrauded?
(Still in Denny Crane mode here).
USPS prices are *very* competitive for small/light packages, and advertising has nothing to do with that.
But I won't use them for high-value items because their tracking numbers are a joke.
They never update them more than once a day, sometimes only update them *after* delivery, and sometimes don't update them at all.
In contrast, when I ship FedEx or UPS, I can track the exact movement of a pkg from start to finish.

George got a warm reception from the fans atop Baldy today as he coasted back down the hill to his team bus.

And then you have to wonder if there is no such thing as bad publicity. Festina reported a rise in sales after the scandal in 1998.

Nevertheless, USPS did have a morality clause built in their contract.

It's like there's a group of people that just sits around and thinks of ways to waste tax money...someone should be investigating Novitsky.

Novitsky needs to be investigating the crooks that brought down Wall St instead of investigating what LA shot in his ass 6 years ago.

1. Andy wasn't that great to start with.
2. LeMond said that but he conveniently forgets it was after he got shot.

1. Yeah, Andy sucked: winning the Giro once, the Tour of Switzerland twice, the Alpe d'Huez stage at the Tour de France once, finishing fourth overall at the Tour de France twice. What a loser.

2. It's true that LeMond struggled greatly from 1987 through the early part of 1989 while making a comeback from the hunting accident. However, after that, he won the Tour de France in 1989 and 1990, and the World Championship Road Race in 1989. From 1991 on, the beginning of the Indurain Era, LeMond never reached the same levels again. This coincides with the time frame when many people believe that the usage of EPO was becoming widespread in the peloton.

You mean like sponsoring bicycle teams?

My understanding is that the opposite is actually true. That it will be the PEDs that form a cornerstone of the case. Namely PEDs from drug trials that he was able to buy up or obtain somehow. It also shoots the level playing field argument in the butt, as they're drugs no one had and that they weren't testing for.

So let's see...I read now that Tyler gave his 2004 Gold Medal back. It's now gone to Eki. Eki was on Postal. According to the "experts", everyone on Postal doped. So, we can conclude the Eki doped too. So the next doper up now has the 2004 Gold Medal.

Folks, I watched people pull syringes out of the back pocket of their jerseys and stick a needle full of emphetamines (and other things) into their legs. Because all they had was a bike racing career and they would do anything, anything on the small chance they'd make it. These same guys would carry cash on them and pay guys to let them win. You guys have no idea what really goes on out there...The son of a former racing compatriot and teammate killed himself with EPO. His blood consistency was about the level of cold molasses.

Personally, none of this matters to me. I started racing bikes at age 9, have followed the sport all this time, and frankly have reached the point that I no longer care that much. In the scheme of things, this really is not that important. The amount of money and time that's being wasted on this is mind numbing.

Time to move on.

This from the Sports Illustrated piece:

the inquiry could result in charges against him of conspiracy, wire fraud, money laundering, racketeering, drug trafficking and defrauding the U.S. government.

I think it's the whole wire fraud/racketeering thing that carries the heavy prison time more than any drug charges, but it all gets down to the drugs in the end.

Much like BF where one dead horse just isn't enough...

As you guys know these threads frequently end up in the Pro Forum (the 217). 8 pages and still a civil discussion is impressive and I certainly do not have an itchy trigger finger. Let's stay this way.

As for the topic: I think cycling ca. 1990s-2000s is similar to baseball during the same period. Entertaining but not completely valid.

Also, with all of the examples out there (e.g. Martha Stewart all the way to Richard Nixon) I am amazed at the lengths people will go to over up things that would get them into minimal trouble and hence find themselves in bigger trouble.

Finally, with a grand jury involved LA can't be surprised by this. His team does an excellent job at counter-attacking accusers and probably intimidating potential ones too but once the possibility of going to jail for perjury comes into play that doesn't seem so terrible.

What seems somewhat surprising is that Hincapie didn't assert the 5th amendment. Of course, the Prosecutors could then give him immunity, and force him to testify (or be in contenpt and sit in jail ala Greg Anderson)

It's possible that when it all comes out that Hincapie may have been given immunity.

Grand Jury proceedings are secret ( with significant penalties for leaking information) and while Grand Jury testimony can become public in certain circumstances later in the proceedings, you often don't find out what actually happened in the Grand Jury.

What I'm thinking is that lately everybody blames the others of doping, to distract attention from themselves.

Discussion of a few days ago ended in this conclusion: Give everyone the same doping, problem solved.

Though, Pcad, you know I have read about your history and have huge amounts of respect for you, I couldn't help wondering... Do you use?

I don't have to be a lawyer to know that there aren't too many Greg Andersons in the world.

That's not a question to ask in a public forum, and even privately, it's a question that only a doctor or lawyer would ask a patient/client in complete confidence.

Regarding George, I must say I admire what little I've heard of his testimony. He's not trying to sell a book, or deflect attention away from himself (or draw it toward himself). It sounds to me like he was subpoenaed, answered truthfully in his deposition, and now doesn't want to talk about it to the press. In any case, I don't think he betrayed his friend. How CBS found out about what he said is still a mystery, and frankly, I'm more interested in that than what G.H. testified.

He has already publicly admitted his illicit use of twinkies, and I admire his courage for coming forward with this.