Ah! No opinions allowed that cause any discomfort. Too bad.

I think he's just trying to highlight that your took your counterpoint to an absurd level. Have you seen how much truing stands, tensionometers etc cost? If you're not regularly building wheels it's hardly going to save money. I'd rather pay someone who knows what they're doing. You could pretty much apply your profiteering argument to any aspect of modern living.

My turn. I raced as a Cat1. You rode what they gave you. Pros are in the same boat. They ride what they're given. The branding sometimes didn't add up to what was under the paint. Since I no longer get free bikes, I get to choose. I think you can get professional level equipment with judicious purchasing and sourcing although it may not have the branding that the pros get.

Since I'm not getting subsidized by sponsors and team, I choose to ride as logo-less as possible. Companies like pedal force, boyd, etc. put high-level gear out there at great pricing. Because, right now, your only sponsor is bianchi10. So don't look like a cyclist. Be a cyclist.

Well said.

What if, instead of a cyclist, you're a triathlete?

there's a forum for that. lol

Good points, though the same thoughts about judicious purchasing apply to the wheel building equipment as well as to the wheels. A complete kit that does the job perfectly well for an amateur shouldn't cost more than $200, maybe less. And I don't disagree with having a pro builder do the work. It certainly makes sense for many folks. As for the profiteering in all aspects of modern living, yep, I agree there too. I would just say be careful and sensible about all your purchases. I find the Bentley to be the most beautiful car in the world. Never given a single thought to owning one.

This discussion will not end well. Please don't derail this thread.

That was a slowball hanging over home plate. The answer I was looking for was "then it's important to buy lots of flashy gear to look good while you do everything very slowly and with a large ego".

I'm not offended at all. I appreciate the input, But I don't think you needed to title it,"have you no self respect". there are several things here that I disagree with. part of the issue is that you dont understand part of this equation, something you cant understand because you are on the outside is our financial situation. We are comfortable. We have a 2700 sq foot home, 3 car carage, 2 nice vehicles, 2 beautiful children. We can afford to put clothes on our backs when needed, fill up our cars with gas as needed, go out when we have the available money in our budget. We have college funds set up for both children. investing into retirement. That is all taken care of. So its not a matter of buying $2k wheels will take food away from my family, education from my kids or any other direct effect on myself or family. We live within our means and do not go out of those means. My wife and i made a plan when we got married that in order to have the lifestyle we wanted, any hobbies or activities that would be unnecessary would have to be paid for by money we got from bday, xmas, or any other way to get sid emoney that doesn't directly effect our house hold income. So this is why coming of money is difficult for me, because there are only so many reasons to get money in a hallmark greeting card throughout the year and I only have so many things laying around that I can sell. Nobody needs to know this and I dont feel I have to explain myself, but in this situation it might help if you or anyone else who might be confused to understand the angle I'm coming from.

Enve products are among the highest quality items you can get. I'm sure they have a mark up, thats what running a business is all about. Its called supply and demand. people are willing to pay for it, therefor he will conitinue to have that margin. I work for red bull. One of the highest gripes we get is that an 8oz can is still more than a 16oz can of rockstar or Monster energy. Most cases, this is true. But even though it is more expensive, Red bull is still the #1 purchased energy drink in the US and in the world. People want a premium product and people are willing to pay for what they want, especially if it is premium. Why do people buy lambos and ferrari's when they could trick out a $10k car and have it be faster? because they want premium and are willing to pay for it. you think a $600,000 car is really worth more than a $200,000 car? You can choose to believe what you want and I'm not going to sit here and act like I know the ins and outs of each hub and why this is better or that is better. I have an EXPERT who has taken it upon herself to teach me and have me experience what I wasn't this entire time. Call it placebo or whatever you want, she has my trust and if she tells me that she think I will benefit more from this or that than i will follow if i can afford it. Please remember that she is the one that wanted me to try the Enve wheels. She knew that it might tempt me a bit, but thought it would be a good opportunity to feel the difference. Her and several other professional wheel builders will tell you that enve wheels are among the best in the field. Thats not just because they make a margin on the sale, but because the the product has proven itself to be that good. Could I get a cheaper hub such as novatech or bitech or edhub? of course. I have been working with Jude very closely through this entire process and she knows what I want out of a wheel. Through that dialogue and information she has put together a wheel suggestion that she thinks will accomplish just that. That suggestion is based off my desire for performance and aesthetics. I told her what I would want to spend and she came up with the ideas that would fit along with it. After coming up with more money, I redrew the line, not her. Maybe I'm foolish for considering the enve's or even that I'm about to drop $1k on a wheelset, but its not like I'm standing in a room alone here. Even people that dont race, people that ride recreationally like myself buy things far superior to what they need. Furthermore I would be very interested to know if you really new what these production companies set their margins at or what this or that costs. Unless you have some direct affiliation with each brand, there is little chance you understand their base numbers.

If YOU want to take lessons on how to build wheels and build up your own set from more inexpensive parts, so be it. The fact of this matter is that the enve wheels are out of my reach for now. Still doesn't change the fact that I find them desireable and am thinking about if I could find a way to make them mine. Even if i did find a way to buy them, Jude has told me that they would be a perfect all around wheel for the riding I do. Whether I can afford them or want to go down the carbon route is up to me. With that said, i dont feel that I would be "ignoring the results for a little sparkle". more of wheel than i was planning on or need, but does in fact fit into my needs of a wheel, regardless if it is more wheel than I need isn't the question. Going back to what I said above, I think it is important for you or anyone else reading this to remember that Jude has earned my trust. Maybe I'm nieve to think that she could have my best interest in mind, but I chose to believe so. If she told me Both would be great for me, but left it up to me on which I want or could afford then I would need to see what I could do with my finances.

True, it does blow my mind on how much companies are able to mark it up as much as they do, but thats the world we live in. There are cheaper options of course, but that goes back to what I was saying above, that some people including myself are willing to pay for that quality. quality of the product and peace of mind.

sorry so long winded, just wanted to try and touch on each of your statements.

very good point

I take issue with his assumptive production and distribution costs. He has no idea of what he's talking about aka, he's talking out of his ass.

Wait. What's wrong with just going with a set of something like Reynolds assaults for ~$1200Ish? You still get the deep carbon look and it's still a great wheel set. Lets face it, most people buy wheels for the looks. Sure, they may not be the best wheels, and yes there are much better aluminum wheel sets like the c2,ck combo you're looking at. But in the end we all still want the looks. You're looking at top of the line alum vs top of the line carbon. I say go middle ground, nothing wrong with that.


I myself just got a set of the Reynolds attacks to try out. I already have a set of hed Ardennes gp I'm running on. But I knew I wanted the look of carbon.

Sorry if I've completely missed the point. Haha

I appreciate the time you took to reply. And I apologize if my assumptions about your finances were intrusive. It is just that this whole thread has given mixed messages. I promise no more personal allusions. You seem to have life well in hand. I know you will enjoy whatever you finally decide on.

Robert

Are your statements any less presumptuous? You have no idea what my experience includes. But know this. I worked in the plastics manufacturing and converting industries for 30 years. (Carbon fiber composites are mostly plastic you know. Knowing the low cost of raw materials, the simplicity of the molding processes, and the region in which the parts are being manufactured, what would you guess the actual manufacturing cost of a rim is?

i find it amusing how so many on the 41 defend to the death the prices charged by bike industry suppliers. I have to assume that doing so is also a defense of their own buying decisions.

+1.

Please do not derail this thread.

It's a hobby. It doesn't require justification. Do what makes you happy. Life is short.

I want to congratulate you on devising such a high brow and intellectual closure to our spirited discourse. It is always a pleasure to engage in a duel of wits with a talented foe. I look forward to another such discussion with you in future.

This thread has been a lot of fun for me. The Blind testing was an amazing lesson and I appreciate all the contribution with this experience.

Now that I have an idea of what path I will be taking, I would imagine the thread will take a little bit different direction now that the "testing" phase is going to be coming to an end unless Jude has something else in mind. I hope that there will be more that follow this thread as I continue to provide feedback with these enve wheels along with my future build with the C2. I still have yet to test ride a set of the HED C2's so I will be sure to post feedback of my experience when that day comes. If I continue ahead with the C2 build, I will probably post some pictures looking for feedback on color options for aesthetics. I assume some could care less which is fine, I hope others will give their thoughts in helping me come to a conclusion.

thank you all again! Lets keep this thread going.

PS, I still have not completely ruled out the Enve's. My plan is to talk with Jude this next week and ask her a few things and get her honest thoughts about which direction she thinks will in my best interest. If she says the enve's Are great but not for me, i will ditch the idea completely.

Is there a reason why all the builds are done with CX-Rays and, for example, not Lasers? Are CXs that superior... Also iirc the shape of the H Plus Archetype is very similar to the HED C2. Looks like you're expecting a superior ride. Thanks again for this awesome thread. Hope it doesn't get derailed by the posts above.

I LOL'd. ...Guess even crude humor beats sanctimony.

The response was in line with the level of your assertion.

Battle? Wits? I think not.

Tell me the one again about how plastics are all the same, thus legos = ENVE rim. Or maybe tell me again about the costs in "the region in which the parts are being manufactured" - does Utah import 12-year-old Chinese girls with delicate fingers to make rims in sweatshops? You're a fool.

I have enjoyed reading about your experiences with the different wheels. It has made me question my assumptions on wheels. If you have not already completed your own research, you should. There are only 3 people in my life that I will blindly trust, none of them are wheel builders.

The other thing to consider is -- can you afford to replace them if they get damaged?

-- mike