You talking climbing or descending?

I road the enve carbon 45's today. half of it was in the rain and i didn't feel that it was dangerous. I did have to make minor adjustments to brake in time. I think that if you aware of the precautions needed, carbon wheels will be just fine.

In short, Before coming into this process I had it all backwards. More than backwards, my expectations out of a wheel just couldn't happen. I wanted it ALL in one wheel and some of the things I wanted were contradicting. I wanted it UBER light but aero, durable and would last me a long time, stiff, brand name, look good, great hubs and all for as cheap as I could find it. Now that I have figured out a little more, i realize that I cant have it all and more important, some of the things I found to be most important were in fact not.

The H plus son with CK hubs was a great wheel. I loved every part except climbing. I still dont know why because I later found out that they weren't much heavier than my boyds I was using. Since I was doing it blind without any information and was asked not to research the wheels I would be testing I had to go strictly off of feel. When I rode them, they felt heavy. that was my perception. I think I guessedt they were around 1750g when in fact they were around 1580 or something. Rode the Velocity A23 next and it felt lighter even though it was a 32/32 spoke wheel and was only 40g lighter than the H plus sons. regardless, i felt they climbed better or easier than the H plus son.

Im going to go for the C2 rim with super sapim spokes. still dont know yet if I'm going to do a 24/24 or 24/28, but will go with a chris king r45 hub. (the sound seems to have grown on me with the enve set) The thing is i haven't test ridden this wheel in any kind of variation of spoke count or anything, but I have kept very good communication with my wheel builder. She has taken my feedback and has put together a suggestion of a build that she knows i will be happy with. We had long conversations about what I want out of a wheel, what I liked and didn't like about each set. She is very well aware that I'm looking for a lighter set but with my new experience am more open minded to having a set that isn't uber light because I have seen the performance of a well built set with good components. Through this process I have learned to trust her. She is an expert and i am not. She has taken note on what i want and has lead me down this road. The feedback i have received from members on the forum of those who have this wheelset have assured me that I am making a great choice.

I hope this is helpful in making your decision about spoke count. I have often heard it expressed as an axiom of modern wheel design that if you have the same number of spokes front and rear, either the front is overspoked or the rear is underspoked. I can't say I know the truth about this, only that it is often repeated by knowledgeable folks. Perhaps Rob would see this and comment. It would be valuable to know whether this is generally true or not.

Robert

Bianchi, did you consider Zipp 202s for your testing? They seem to fit your criteria unless I missed something.

He was talking about affordability yes. He didn't mention anything about debt. He had a budget in mind is all. I can set a budget for something and then blow straight through it. Doesn't mean I can't afford what I ended up paying. IMO, much too much was read into what he said about budget.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm probably similar to you in my thinking - light but durable though I never gave much thought to aero as at 200lbs I have more to worry about than the wheels but if buying new stuff might as well get the best you can afford.

I have a set of C2 rims with CK hubs (on my Synapse). Great wheels. 24/32 spokes. I went higher in back because I wanted long distance comfort and that's what was suggested. I though 28 front to go with the "4 less" trend but was told that wasn't needed. Agree that you'd want more in the back to deal with the weight and torque that the rear wheel gets subjected to compared to the front.

For my caad I'm wanting something with a bit of bling but I guess that's not all that important. My bike doesn't sit in front of coffee shops. Unless I'm at a light it's moving and who can see the wheels then. Certainly not me. Would look better in pics though

My caad w/kinlin rims as of today (had to clean it up after a somewhat messy ride so took a pic).



EDIT: Pretty nice bike if I do say so myself.

Climbing

I dont know if she has zipps avaialble. I will check into it though because zipps would be nice to have as well. probably still out of my budget though. She does have reynolds rims, but she was saying they will be releasing some new products within the next year or sooner and would suck to build up a set to shortly after have the newer and better stuff come out. I will be checking in with her on tuesday.

I agree lol. Some were focusing a bit too much on that. I completely understand that I said I wanted to stay within "$X" amount and members were giving advise within that dollor amount. So I can understand why some may have questioned the Enve's coming into play. But I feel that some took it to an extreme or were offended.

Bianchi, I have been meaning to tell you this for a couple of days, but it keeps slipping my mind. You have emphasized an interest in stiffness, and yet you have also mentioned an interest in Sapim Super spokes. I just want to make sure you know that they will make an extremely flexible wheel, i.e. ~15% more flexible than a wheel with the same number of C-X Ray spokes. And of course the C-X Rays are already very flexible. You may get what you want from them. There is no way for me to say otherwise, but I wouldn't commit to it without trying them out beforehand. For you to be happy with a spoke like that, I would think you would need at least 28/32.

huh. ok, thx for the info. maybe I misunderstood jude. I will check that out, because a stiff wheel is more important to me than losing a little bit of weight. I was under the impression that i could go to the super which is more expensive but would lower weight without effecting performance. I will have to check that out. appreciated.

Care to help me understand lol? I thought Aero comes into play over 20mph, so how is it that Aero trumps weight when climbing?

Maybe because pros climb really fast compared to us mortals.

I'll keep it simple. Let's say that you have equivalent wheelsets inball respect, except one is .5lb lighter (226g). You weigh 165lb, your complete bike is 15 lb. During sustained climbing, at speeds below which aerodynamics come into play, the heavier system is .28% slower.

But aero effects come into play a little earlier than you think. More like 12 mph. And, of course, you're not only riding uphill at slow climbing speeds, and so an aerodynamic wheel which offers a performance gain of .3% or better is something to consider.

I'd consider Boyd's new 44mm offering and see if he'd do it as 20spoke front and 28rear.

bikerjp,
Can you compare the performance difference between C2/CK wheelset and Kinlin wheels?...in terms of ride, spool up and overall impressions?
Lastly, 32 spokes in back seems like a lot for performance wheels. Can you explain why a higher spoke count would manifest more comfort as you wrote. I can understand greater durability and stiffness...but more comfort?
thanks

Won't add much, but:

You are around 170lbs, want stiff, but are thinking about a 24 spoke rear. Simply does not compute. Thinking the same on the Sapim Super spoke, 1.4mm diameter, yikes that is skinny. The spoke may be strong enough to take it, but I can assure you, as an engineer, it will come with the price of increased deflection. While different steel compositions, heat treatment and processing affect strength, they do NOT change the modulus, which defines how much a material will deform for a given stress (Hookes Law). For a spoke, assume it is only under axial tension. Therefore, Stress=Force/cross sectional Area. Cross sections, by my calculations: (1) Super Spoke= 1.54mm^2, (2) CX-Ray=1.98mm^2, (3) Sapim D-Lite, 1.65mm round=2.14mm^2, (4) Sapim Race, 1.8mm round=2.54mm^2. You are automatically taking a 30% hit in stiffness in going with Super Spokes over CX-Rays, all other things being equal.

Pdedes is making some reasonable points. From a strickly physics viewpoint, a little extra mass comes into play under acceleration/deceleration, not at steady state (ie constant velocity). Aerodynamics is always in play, albeit not that significant at lower velocities, and resistance is proportional to velocity^2.

Carbon rims don't make much sense with your financial limitations. Simply destroy one rim, pothole/whatever, and you are suddenly looking at an $800+ repair. Do the same with the C2 rim, and you are back in action for $150ish.

FWIW, working with pre-preg carbon fiber material, which is what the Enve rims are made from, is nothing like working injection molded plastics. Most of what the general populace considers "plastics" are thermo-plastics. The are solid at room temperature, apply heat, they soften, and once cool, they harden again. Pre-preg, is short for pre-impregnated, as in a fabric, woven or not, of carbon, or any number of other fiber materials, loaded with a resin, in this case epoxy, which is a thermoset. Flexible, at room, or lower temperatures, to be cured at elevated temperature. Once cured, they do not soften again, although they can be damaged by heat. The stuff is terribly expensive, and somewhat of a pain to work with. You don't just slap a couple of pieces in a mold an call it a day. I would not be at all surprised if Enve has 60-90 minutes of labor in each rim.

Go ahead an purchase the nice alloy clincher set. If you really want to experience the Koolaid, think a set of carbon tubulars, with some Vittoria Pave EVOs (24 or 27). You could hit your weight, stiffness, and performance goals, and ride what the pros ride, if that makes any difference.

Thanks for the info. I must have misunderstood Jude with the option of super Sapim spokes. I do not want to lose performance must to save weight. So if this is true, the super sapims will not be a choice anymore. I will be doing a 24f/28r.

The enve wheel, though sexy as hell and nothing short of amazing will not be an option anymore either. Done ALOT of thinking about it and I have come to the conclusion (thanks to many of you and some friends who talked me back to what is best for my situation) that they just are not a smart choice for me, for many reasons. I will be talking with jude tomorrow about making my order of the c2.

How dare somebody provide useful information.

My understanding of the Supers is that they are meant only for lightweight builds. They are very flexy and require higher tension. Sapim even recommends buying them shorter as they stretch more than others. I think they are also very expensive too. I would stick with CX Ray or even laser.

Good choice of not getting the Enves. You will be wanting a set of the Enve SMART 3.4 or 6.7 shortly after getting the older 45s. It will never end.

Sorry, I'm an engineer, and was simply trying to put numbers behind some of the opinions that have been floating around. During my training years, I also completed four co-op quarters in the aerospace world, where I learned the basics of trying to make qualified parts from carbon composites. There is science behind the design, and a whole lot of black art in getting them successfully produced.

I've done some peer reviewed publication too, but this is more relaxing.

Sounds like you are well on your way to a very nice wheelset.

So your saying that rim selection, spoke selection and lacing patterns do not come into play when deciding spoke count?

He's decided on a rim, somewhat shallow alloy, and has only really shown interest in highly butted flexy spokes. Regardless of spoke pattern, at 170lbs, and with his amount of assumed power(25mph for 40 miles leads me to believe he has quite the engine) he's going to get a ton of flex.

I'm a bit heavier, not quite as powerful in the long run, and am getting a ton of flex out of a similar wheelset. And its lace 3x, 28h, with lasers.

If he's doing 24h, I'd HIGHLY recommend sapim races in the rear. No way lasers or CX rays will stay stiff with 24 spokes.

Something like a Sapim CX or a DT Aero Comp would provide additional stiffness with minimal addition to aero drag.

CX rays are not stiff spokes. Anything that thin is going to compromise lateral stiffness.

Sure, they will be stiffer than sapim supers, but CX rays are just flattened lasers, and that would definitely not affect its modulus. CX rays offer the same lateral stiffness as Sapim lasers, which would require more spokes than a wheel with less aggressively butted spokes to maintain the same stiffness.

I would wonder what would be more aerodynamic. Fewer round spokes, or more bladed spokes. Interesting stuff.

I said Sapim CX. Not Sapim CX-Ray. The CX is equivalent to roughly a straight gauge 2.0 spoke, although it would require hub to be drilled for its 2.8 width. Aero comp would be a better choice.

Yes, Sapim says the Supers and Super X-Rays require more tension, but the minimum values they give are still well below the normal range for modern well built wheels. My point is that they would normally be tightened to the same tensions as for C X-Rays and other even beefier spokes so saying requires more tension doesn't really mean anything in most cases. Where it does mean something is on the non-drive side. Sapim is basically saying don't pick a hub design and lacing pattern that will leave the non-drive side anywhere close to slack.

As for stiffness, well I had to stub my toe on that issue big time before brighter guys convinced me that higher tension does not contribute significantly to higher stiffness. But I finally realized that the stress-strain curve for stainless steel in the normal wheel building stress region is pretty close to a straight line (constant slope = constant modulus) so tightening the spokes more won't make the wheel stiffer.

All pretty much as Staggerwing already asserted.