If the US government had an immigration policy that satisfied America's employment needs it would make more sense to have every immigrant who works here apply for a work visa then a green card. As it stands now we give out something like 50,000 work permits a year to Mexicans, which is vastly below the demand of the economy. Nothing productive will happen when people form their opinions out of emotions over the percieved wrongs done to them by immigrants. It's simple economics: we need workers...they are workers...we need them. And finally, none of this would be necessary if America had used some of its vast economic and political power to improve the Mexican economy, reducing the 'push' of labor migration to el Norte. Instead we pass NAFTA, trying to turn Mexico into an export-processing zone that atrophies the rest of the country, especially the central and southern sections, where most of the immigrants come from.

Or...find a solution that doesn't swing from one extreme to the other. Making them all criminals at the felony level is extreme, doing awway with borders is equally ludicrous.

The Guest Worker program being touted by the Bush Administration has some merit though. Mr Bush knows who writes some of his checks, and those people don't want to be cut off from their labour force. Their selfish motivations aside, they are willing to pay fairer wages and be more responsible with their workforce in order to keep it. The whole thing stinks of standard lame duck practices. Do something that can be seen as humanitarian and progressive on your way out to smooth the path for whoever your party will present next. Who cares though, if it is a good program and helps people it still won't do too much to distance the GOP from the decisions that administration made.

which one: Navajo? Apache? Dene? Wynoochie? American Sign Language?
English isnt the national official language, de facto isnt official.

our streets aint too pretty to begin with but boy, I sure do love how they sh*tted them up at their demonstration/rally yesterday!
nothing beats riding thru blocks and blocks of dropped food garbage, diapers, flyers and flags. :rolleyes:

I don't understand why INS isn't attending these protests and shipping these illegals back to the place they came from. It's a no brainer and it can't get any easier than that!

Ever seen the results of a large Earth Day rally? You're right, the people on the streets yesterday were in fact people.

Though it may not be the official language, English certainly appears to be the standard and can be very helpful in making your way. Being able to speak the "standard language" is more insurance for an immigrant to know they're not being pissed on. It's a helpful tool to get by in our society. I think to allow illegals to continue to come through and not have the tools necessary to get by here, would be a disservice to them. They can't vote. They may not speak english. They essentially can be taken advantage of by any shady employer. Being here legally is much better for them as well as us. Can we boot them all? No...but we need to stop the flow of illegals and work on some way of openning the doors for the people that are here and get a policy that will encourage them to get here legally. Once people are documented and legal they can demand higher wages, they don't have to hide and they have some recourse if they're getting screwed by an employer. We also would know who is here and what they are doing.

yeah, what gives? ya figure they'd be a little more thoughtful.

my grandfather was an illegal immigrant from mexico. he basically got pissed on for not having the right papers when he worked and fought for this country the same as those who were born here. but they had papers saying they were people the government could give two ****s about, and he had nothing, and they didn't give two ****s about him. he died from complications of his military involvement in world war II, and applied for pension and VA benefits, but for all he did in and for this country in his time here (most of his life), he was told it didn't matter.

that's ****ed up. i hate discussions of immigration that use the word "illegals" and talk about people like they're creepy crawly blood-sucking worms and not human beings. these people contribute as much to society as anyone, and love this country more than many of us do, and want to work to better their lives and make this country a better place for everyone. and our government wants to piss all over them, and some of us want to let it.

You're a funny guy. Really.

You do realize that these protests consisted of both legal and illegal immigrants, right?

You also realize that INS is understaffed, and would have no where near the manpower to even snag 1% of the people at the LA protest, right?

Sometimes I wonder about you short-sighted people...

You're not just trolling, are you?

Nope, no trolling here - its how I truly feel.

Yes there were both legal and illegal, I know this

INS is understaffed, like every other organization - get over it. They still could have done something. Even a small numer getting shipped back is enough of a message.

LoL, I feel bad for you silentshifter, having to travel all the way to the SS/FG forum just to offer low cunning in statements that demonstrate your inability to get your head around the problem. There were many more people attending rallys and demonstrations yesterday than there are undocumented immigrants in the US. Protecting the rights of even the disenfranchised is a proud American tradition that still has its place. So you see there are 2 answers that you missed, but maybe the writing on the wall was too high above your brow. Evolution is funny that way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you stupid, just simple. Even if the problem could be solved to your satisfaction, no one would dream of letting you solve it.

disenfranchised? That makes it sound like the government did it to them! They're the ones who put themselves in that position. It's not the government's fault they jumped the border.

disenfranchise means to deprive of rights. immigrants are deprived of rights because of the laws that make it extremely difficult to get documented/legal residency.

for people who are all hung up on how folks who've crossed borders are "illegal," yall should consider that you've living on land that was stolen via genocide and hundreds of years of broken treaties with independant nations. why don't you have a problem with that, too?

Oh wait...here we go with that, "Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry masses." crap. Don't you get it? That was a bad joke played on us by the french.

Because I have a lot of German blood in me. I think we should annex Mexico.

I think the system is broken. I don't think our government has done a good job with recognizing the legitimate need for labor with its policies. Also the government has failed to secure the border. We need to stem the tide of illegal immigration and work towards some sort of citizenship for undocumented workers who have a job.
We do need immigration reform.

Yes it is, we created the situation, not them. They know there are jobs here while where they are there are none. They know that they will be allowed to work when they arrive. Who provided those jobs? American citizens. Who does the hiring? We do. Why? Ask the government and those doing the hiring. It's an open invitation when proper citizens reward those less fortunate with fair, low or criminally low wages for being an undocumented worker.

Do you really believe that a large group of undocumented workers arrived in the US and created these jobs they now fill? Historically, you'd be right, since many colonists were here under the sanction of foriegn kings & queens or not, and thereby illegal. It doesn't apply to the current situation though. That is our doing.

Fear and aggression are not exclusively German traits.

Simply put, you've got to play by the rules. If you dont and you're caught, you've got to accept what's going to happen. Documentation is good for both sides. I have no problem with anyone being my neighbor, but I want to know that he/she is governed by the same rules, pays the same taxes, has the same rights as I do. If they are outside the system it's not a good thing.

Absolutely! Although a secure border could be seen as a symptom of an immigration policy that is fair and accesible.

This is true. Let us then, develop a system in which these workers can become part of it. There is a certain hypocrisy in our country's leadership, one that wishes to make them felons, but at the same time relies on undocumented workers for the economy. Why didn't INS go and deport them all? That would piss a lot of people off, including conservative, republican employers. INS is, um, selective in who they go after. With many undocumented workers, its like the gay military "solution"-don't ask, don't tell. But everyone knows the deal. Blaming immigrants for our problems is age old political scapegoating.

Oh, and I like fixed gear bikes. Do you?

Amazingly, this thread has not been moved to P and R II.

Even with a guest worker program hiring 400,000+ a year, there will still be illegal immigration. People in favor of an open border will always say the guest worker program isn't hiring enough, no matter what the number is. Other groups will always say there are too many guest workers and they are dampening wages.

Does anybody know if a guest worker will be able to vote? Politicians on both sides are trying to work this immigration issue to their advantage and score some more voters.

if disenfranchised means to be deprived of rights then illegal aliens are not disenfranchised.
it seems to be absurd to break the law to get here and then claim it's your right to have citezenship.

That's patently wrong. Red-light runners, tax evaders, murderers all have rights that are respected, it's part of what gives society the ability to function as a whole. Whether or not you've broken the law is no measure of worthiness when it comes to basic human rights. That is one of the basic tenets of the civilized society we live in.

The right to vote is indeed something to be decided by the government, which represents the people. The right to equal treatment under common law is not. Not too long ago there were not any African-Americans because they were not considered worthy of citizenship by the ruling class. That is true despite the fact that this ruling class was the same one whose machinations brought these people into the land. Lots of people said they should be sent back, or worse, killed, rather than be granted even the most basic human rights. Thankfully reason and compassion won in that instance in an ongoing struggle that has yet to reach a conclusion.

They are here now, of that there is no question. They are needed, you can debate that but you'd lose, after all, somewhere in your life is something that came to you by their efforts. Whether it's a strawberry or a house or an air-conditioner it hardly matters. If you truly believe that they should have no say in their own future in the US then I know a hell of a lot immigrants on both sides of several borders that I'd rather call my countrymen. At least they can learn from their own history, and ours, which are inextricably intertwined.

"Send them back" "They aren't one of us" "They aren't good enough" "They didn't get here the right way" "They wouldn't be here if it weren't for our own greed and sloth, I'll dig ditches!" "They don't belong here"

All crap.

"They" are people. You probably won't dig ditches or harvest crops or work in unsafe factories, but you'll reap the benefit...

You tell people, these people who you've never met, to get out, go home, unwanted, just animals, not worthy of basic human rights...and I gaurantee when you turn around a greater number than you can muster will lock up the animal you've become.