Good luck to you and your future happiness if you choose to define yourself, and others, by what they do for money. I choose to pick my friends for who they are as people.

It IS sad to me that people are unable to define their own identity and feel the need to be pigeon holed into one group or another.

Lastly, I never acted as if I was cool and better than others, that role seems to be taken by the folks throwing around the labels.

So you claim you don't define yourself, not even partially, by what you do each day...this thing you do for income that is also a skill you learned or a trade you practice? You claim that it does good for others, but that there is no part of you in it?

You can see why that statement is suspect, can't you?

or, if you agree that people do not define themselves entirely by what they do, but that it is a consideration and an important one, that you do not do so because you find it sad/pathetic? Why?, in order not to seem sad or pathetic yourself, to yourself?

You can see why that doesn't work as well?

Good luck to you if you paint yourself so easily into a corner at whatever it is you do that you're so ashamed of each day. Certainly if you won't allow it to be a part of you at all, yet must spend so much time at it, you must have some difficulty with it?

Why would you believe that a person who enjoys what they do, associates with others who do the same thing and doesn't take the time to lay out for every stranger just who & what they are beyond the task they perform unable to define themselves?

c'mon junior, I've got a can of paint thinner if you can just reach it.

This is getting long winded and a little trite. If you're into what you do, you do it. for most of the time you're awake you work, and you get into or gotta be to some degree. Everyone else does. It's a common intrest.

How beautiful a thing to say..

and then, how sad, as I realize my job is not always so fufilling.. if only for the people I'm responsible for, I'll continue it...

First off there is no need for your condisending attitude and insults. If you'd like to discuss something I'd be more than happy to, if you'd like to throw around insults and an attitude go find someone else to be the focus of your against.

I'm not going to discuss what I do for a living as I don't want to identify myself to strangers on the internet. I'm the only person in Latvia doing the particular thing which I do. It's a skill, not a trade. Helping others is something which is important to me, and I do it in different ways, not just through my work. I love what I do and have absolutely no reason to be ashamed of it. For you to say otherwise is simply dishonest.

Defining one by ones work is a very American way of looking at people. My wife, who is Latvian, was surprised at just how often she was asked what she did for money when she was in America. She's a very down to earth woman who had what would be seen as a high status job in the eyes of Americans. People would be much more friendly and receptive to her when they found out where she worked. Yet to her it was just a job.....

As for people defining themselves via their job it seems to me that most people do this for social standing and recognition. If you feel that work is the most important part of your life and wish to let it define you as a person, go right ahead. I feel much more comfortable in a society where people are defined, and by extension judged, by their individual merits.

I don't care if you are a messenger or a rent-a-cop, what I do care about is how you are as a person.

sorry, but I have to call bull**** here. $1000 per week, and "easily"? Where do you work and for what company? When I was in NY, there would be days kinda close to that, but they sure as hell weren't easy or sustainable for that matter.

This works in an ideal company, with an unlimited amount of work and a limited staff. But there are only so many tags to go around. The vets are going to get more juicy and easy work because they have been there longer and deserve it, not exclusively because they are faster or more efficient. Of course if you're known as a worker you'll get noticed-but this will only get you so far. I can't think of anything more "political" than having work given to someone else because they have been there longer than you, or the dispatcher is their buddy.

Are you going to tell me that a college kid who's doing it for summer break is going to eat before an allweather pro who's been with the company for 5+ years? Even if this kid is a hotshot who can knockout tags faster than those who've been there longer, he's still going to get less work. How can you forget about status?

I love this job. I love those who've earned their stripes. But I realize that there is just as much BS here as in any other line of work.

I'll argue where I please buster, if I'm enjoying it. It's not an American trait in the least, you've got that confused with the questionable American practice of judging another's or one's own self worth based entirely on their occupation, and that too happens Everywhere to some degree. People across all cultures have defined themselves to a great degree by what they do, it's how many people came by their family names, and there is probably no stronger evidence than that fact. That in the past people were defined so capably by the contribution they made that they should be called by that job as a given name or surname.

I don't believe for a second you place any stock at all in your earlier statement, what was it?

"Of course they do (have differences), but to get your identity from your job is just plain sad."

If you were immune in a substantial way and really did conduct yourself that way, your work having no inward or outward effect on your superego, you'd be one messed up cat. It'd take a serious dose of disassociation to do something day in & day out and not have that undertaking partially define just who you are, from why you do it, to how you do it and every other aspect. That level of disassociation would be, to say it gently, frightening.

The most probable explanation I can think of for such a silly statement is that this is the internet, where we all gather to type whatever the hell we want, and you though that a clever, ill intended comment without really understanding what you suggested. I just found it particularly ludicrous, and thought it'd be fun to explain why. No need to get your panties in a wad just because you're an *******, it's okay to be an ******* you know. Especially in places like this.

If it bugs you, don't read it, I'm just going on about something you wrote that made no sense at all.

Why do you feel the need to be a prick? It's clear that you don't want to have a reasonable discussion.

I choose to be defined, and define others, by who they are, not what they do for money. It you think that being a messenger gives you identity all the power to you, but is that all that you are? Are you just someone who delivers packages, and chooses to do it on a bicycle?

All this reminds me of a dope dealer I used to know, he was a total loser, had nothing to say, but was identified as a dope dealer, thus he had identity. He was completely defined by what he did for money, not who he was as a person.

Finally, it is much more common in North America to define people by their jobs. I have friends here in Latvia and I have no idea what they do for money, it's just not that important.

Everyone has friends with whom they never discuss work you know. I asked before why you insist it's black and white? You really believe it's one way or the other, that a person -is- or -isn't- defined by what they do? You really think that?

I think your dope dealer friend probably was a loser, but that he had friends of his own, and family, and relationships and a life you know nothing about, even people he didn't discuss work with, and these things too all defined him. Seems like -you- defined him based entirely on what he does/did, doesn't it?

This is a reasonable discussion for this medium, maybe you should go watch TV.

I never said it was a black and white issue. Now you are twisting my words.

The dope dealer had no one. He spent almost all of his time at my house with my roommate. He chose to define himself as a dope dealer because it gave him status, and he had no other way of achieving an identity for himself to show to others.

Sorry, kido, I don't have a TV.

It's black and white if you choose one without the other. I'm not saying you do, I'm saying you can't. Internally, people are defined greatly by the way they spend their time & their experiences, and a great deal of that time is spent doing something for income, or as I'd put it, making their contribution.

Here try this;

I'll say "I'm a bike messenger"

Now what do you think of that? Be honest. I just want to see what you think. It's not your fault, the cat woke me up. Other people explained it too, but you insist that you're doing it differently and I'm just curious now.

Is this thread a debate about the nature of one's identity and how it relates to one's labor? Or is it a thread about the current state of Bicycle Messengering [identity politics notwithstanding.]?

LA has two-three sets of messenger groups, spread geographically. Downtown, Century City, and possibly Pasadena. DTLA and CC are totally legal. The court systems here are mostly switching to internet. How that affects our demand is to be seen.
There is also plenty of supply at the moment. And also, the companies here are nearly low level wages, or low commission. There's always talk of co-ops [the is one, LABMC. but it offers supplemental income.] and unions, but unfortunately, most messengers here are either young, or too concerned with their own lives, or just getting drunk and *****ing about fakengers, which, is kind of the norm.
Funny story. There was a photo shoot the other day. A week ago, they put out the word that they were looking for "messengers/messenger looking people". Bunch of kids showed up, myself included. Turns out that all the civvies got picked. I guess they looked more like "us" than "us".
Identity can get pretty nebulous at times.

True that,
, it's about the industry I guess, I was just having fun with frosty, sorry for the disconnect.

Now that's funny.

A local bike shop owner played the part of a messenger extra in "Shallow Hal" when they shot it in Charlotte.
We all stopped working to watch him be us. Neat.
(BTW: I accidentally screwed up a shot they were filming when I rolled into the scene with a rush job. The movie people seemed pissed, but I did get a lot of cheers from the other messengers watching.)

Ziemas your posts have come off as Condescending and insulting. You may want to do some introspection before you call the kettle black.

Sorry it came off that way, it wasn't my intention at all.

im just glad this thread brought out all the messengers to post... why isnt there a good messengers forum anywhere?

There is a messengers forum, there just aren't a lot of messengers

I sound like an ass in my posts too without facial expressions & tonality, so if you can imagine having that chat at a pub with smiles and laughter Ziemas you'd have what I thought of it

learn to think outside the box so to speak, your an independent contractor

I work for myself, I own my company.

If your working for a company you like that doesnt give you enough work or the the commission and rates suck, either leave and go to a new one or force them to give you more and better work. If your wondering how to do that, its quite simple actually, get them some new customers, I have yet to see a company turn away buisness unless they cant handle it. Last company I worked for before starting my own, I increased their business and my take home pay by 150% in 18 months. Ive been thru buyouts, hostile takeovers, a strike, and dealt with all sorts of various levels of management from vey good to damn bad. The job is what YOU make of it, not what someone hands to you. Last company I worked for after I got them seriously rolling thought they still owned me and refused to get with my program, now we are competitors and Ive been kicking their dumb azzes, they have had zero growth in the last 4 years, my biz is at my limit of what I can do without hiring help.

If the office is unprofessional and plays silly games(politics) get out and find a new one, messenger companies are a dime a dozen, and most of them violate the contract and suck at management, just like messengers, only a few are good at what they do.

you can make very very good money at this if you know what to do and where to get the work, it isnt rocket science-----you dont have to just haul envelopes at $4- $7 a pop you know, there are all sorts of things that pay much much better. Even just hauling basic point A to point B runs I make $35/hr when Im busy, and alot of what I do pays double that.

Nicely put Pedex!

The industry is similar to any other in many ways.

To succeed you must be a hustler.

Seems to me that many people don't develop their own client relationships, and will 'take what they are given' from whatever place they work at.

I know more than a few messengers in NY that have their own clients and run profitable business.

Personally I prefer the gunslinger attitude and love to travel etc. For me having the year round responsibility of the 'Boss' is not where I am at.

Lucky to have found the Cycle Messenger World Champs (in 95 Toronto). Which introduced me to sponsorship and the connection between cycle messengers and 'professional' sports.

Cycling in America is going through a renaissance and I am happy that bike messengers are a positive part of it!

what he said well put hawk
therre is a guy that is like 50 or something here in sacto and he has bben in the messenger business since he was 18 he gets paid quite nicely owns a house and plays with his slot cars all day rather than work for someone else he has his own clients and they pay him top dollar he is still one of the fastest and most accurate guys I have ever met
i.e. there is a law firm that has him deliver them fresh popped pop corn and hotdags once a week just because they like him