eskachig

In all honesty, cops don't give a flying **** about maintaining dependence on fossil fuels. Nor do they really care much about young, open-minded, intelligent people. The event got so big that they started to perceive it as a demonstration, and a possible threat to public safety. Trust me, they don't give a **** about your message, they're just worried about a large organized group and they're treating the cyclists as they would any march through the city.

I'm still for making the ride impossible to monitor, but there is no reason to pretend that cops are some kind of evil enforcement arm for big oil.

eskachig

I'm on the fence about cops. For the most part they're a nuisance, but when I need them I'm really really really really glad they're there. Without police civilized life would be impossible so I put up with them. My real beef is with lawmakers who create ******** policies that police has to enforce.

Oh, and as for the car culture being necessary for police departments to survive don't fool yourselves. If cars become replaced by bikes on the roads cops will simply start ticketing cyclists for running stop signs to make up the revenue. And they'll be happy to not have so many cruisers to support and less traffic to deal with.

Most of the people with "cops implicitly suck" attitude have simply never been in a real serious situation requiring police intervention. I've seen cops prevent stabbings, risk their lives arresting violent people with weapons (the one SF cop I personally know had his partner killed earlier this year while chasing a gunman), deal with domestic violence, and help lost old ladies. It's a hard job, and they deal with the worst of humanity day in and day out. There are some cops that suck, but for the most part cops rule, and I respect them very much.

Even suburban cops in my hometown never ticketed me for underage booze and pot (confiscated and sent on my way), and helped me recover stolen property without getting my ass beat by a bunch of wannabe thugs.

kjohnnytarr

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that you really can't have a society without some sort of law enforcement.

I say this because no matter how perfect a society is, the people will always designate certain actions as criminal, as a way of providing a standard of actions. Think about the Amish: they exist in a society without crime as we know it, so they designate acts like building a barn in an unconventional way as a serious offense.

Here's my point: A community bike ride is by nature much safer and less disruptive than your average motorized rush-hour. Butlaw-enforcement will still invent problems with it, as a way to keep you under their control. The unfortunate fact is that when you use a more perfect mode of transportation, you'll be held to surprisingly more strict standards of behavior, even when they're unreasonable.

That's just the nature of deviance in our society, and the only way around it is to fly under the radar. Unfortunately, that makes it pretty much impossible to get through a community / CM style ride without being harassed by the police, because the very nature of their role in society relative to yours dictates that they find something wrong with you.

willypilgrim

i don't think anyone is.
Before i became super into riding, i still hated cops, and for the same reason, and I'm not sure why dense mother ****ers like you can't comprehend it:

Police are the ruthless, unchecked tool of the ruling class. A cop is not your friend. Your friend might be a cop, but a cop is not your friend. And before people start crying about attacking you and calling you dense, seriously, i'm sick of people saying **** like you did. It's one thing to disagree with my, and what seems like the majority of the board, stance on police. It's another thing entirely to be completely dumbfounded as to why anyone might dislike cops. To me, that's akin to saying, "gee, why don't you guys want to get aids?"

This came up at work today, because a customer yesterday called the cops because they thought someone was having sex in a car outside. I wasn't there, but coworkers filled me in today. When I called the customer a coward and said if they were actually upset they should have knocked on the window of the car themselves, the "criminals" would have been as, if not more, upset, as when the cops intervened.

A co-worker asked me if I'd call the cops if someone was breaking into my house, and i had the easy response of :"someone did try to break into my house last year, and my roommate and I dealt with it oureselves. No cop has ever been called by me."

willypilgrim

P.S.

I should really just stop clicking on any thread that has to do with cops.

Foamer

If someone was breaking into my house I'd call the cops. But despite their "bravery" and want to save people's lives, they also bust people for petty **** that doesn't matter and doesn't affect anyone else's life. That's inexcusable in my opinion. I've met nice cops, I've met ****ty ass mother ****ers too. I generally fear them and dislike them. Rarely have I met a cop who didn't insult my intelligence and act in a condescending manner. They waste their time when there are real problems and people truly in danger. I've had friends get written up for drinking beer on the stoop of their own house in Baltimore city. ****in bodymore murderland. C'mon, there's more ruthless harmful **** goin on.

willypilgrim

If people weren't such cowards, communities could protect themselves from crime that actually matters and everything would be fine.

If you see someone raping someone, **** them up and it probably won't happen again. People, and criminals especially, are scared ****less by random citizens actually standing up to them.

pazzmore

I do not respect any police officer. ACAB. Police are thugs who enjoy acting like gang members for the state. I have never had a positive interaction with a cop and I am 38 years old. I have had COUNTLESS run-ins with the cops while skateboarding that are nothing but insults as a responsible citizen and community member. I have had many friends assaulted by the police and one friend murdered by the police. Small towns are no better than large cities. After only 3 years on the "force", police separate everyone into two categories of people: "Cops" and "as$holes". Right back at you Old Bill.

Foamer

Its hard to stand up to someone with a gun when you don't and don't wish to own one. I'm all about defending myself, but I don't really wanna die either. Not to say cops are the only one's who can defend, but there are times when people are out numbered and underpowered. If I saw someone getting ***** I'd act on my own and call 911. You also can't generalize all criminals, there are a lot of insane/drugged up people who really have no problem destroying your ass.

willypilgrim

The **** are you gonna do when someone confronts you with a gun if you don't defend yourself? You think you can say, oh, hold on mr. criminal, please don't shoot me while i phone the police.

willypilgrim

And it's not like I'm saying, you see a girl getting ***** in an alley by your house, you throw on some blaze orange clothes and run around outside yelling DON'T **** HER. You grab whatever weapon you want from your house, and sneak up on the dude and wreck him. You don't have to be stupid about it.

Foamer

I have no clue what I'd do. No, I don't expect him to hold on. I'm either gonna do what he says, get shot, or attempt to defend myself with all those handy "disarming" tricks that'd I'd probably forget as soon as I was facing a barrel.

Foamer

It all depends on the situation. It'd be pretty easy to get a weapon if the dude was outside your house, as opposed to walking down the street unarmed. Also, I'd want his ass in jail. You saying you're gonna kill him? Cops are gonna be involved then. If not, then there's a chance he's going to get away and probably **** again because ******* rarely strike once, even if they get hurt/arrested in the process.

Gurgus

Its all well and good to talk about defending yourself, but when someone has a gun pointed at you, your gonna ****e your pants. I haven't had it happen to me yet, but I have had a knife held to my throat and believe me, being a tough guy is the last thing on your mind at that point. You just want that ****e to stop.

musicsucks

haha.. are you for real?

humancongereel

this thought has crossed my mind on some occasions.

humancongereel

i don't see the problem with anything willypilgrim is saying,if you put in a larger context. let me put it another way--if we can protect oursselves and our communities, we don't need the cops. it's not a tough guy thing, talking about ****ing up people who are, say, raping someone. it's a small part of a larger picture that involves actual communities and working together, cooperation and mutual aid and mutual respect and looking out for one another so that the people can protect themselves rather than being, as one poster said earlier "sheeple" and waiting for someone else to come protect them--thereby also creating the opportunity to control them.

if we can protect ourselves and our communities, we don't need the cops.

musicsucks

okay okay..
so who decides where to draw the line at which someone can be attacked for a crime? Should somebody be killed for raping someone else? What if they aren't really raping them, it just looks like it? What other crimes can someone be attacked for? Like the people having sex in the car outside the coffee shop- what if some tough guy decided that that is "illegal"? How about people riding their bikes on the road? There are a few people who think that should be punishable by death.

In this pardigm the laws are decided by whoever is biggest... and subtler crimes would go completely unpunished.

humancongereel

except for the thing is, the operative word in any such discussion is "community". while it's improbable that **** wouldn't happen anyway, deciding what's best for the community isn't an individual decision, so some big dude who doesn't like people screwing in a car is acting with disrespect for the community and has that to deal with.

it's like society on a smaller scale, where it's an inimately connected group of people acting under self-determination, mutual respect and protection.

musicsucks

...in which case you don't have buddy raping the girl in the back alley anyways.
I mean sure, if everyone in the community would look out for each other and we didn't need cops, that would be great. No one really likes cops, fair enough. But this sounds -pretty- utopian and we are clearly not there yet, so i think it's pretty fair to take exception to willypilgram calling people cowards for not being able to stand up to crimes that matter. Especially when he brings class into it ("Police are the ruthless, unchecked tool of the ruling class")- while i don't necessarily disagree that cops are pretty friendly to the uperclass and not to the lower class- if there weren't cops, then the rich would simply own bigger guns and get the same preferential treatment.

humancongereel

it's a quandry, to be sure....but i've seen this sort of ethic work in small settings, and don't think it's too utopian to think that it could happen anywhere. note i don't say "everywhere" as though everyone's going to be great and look out for one another suddenly, but anywhere, as though people can make a choice and try to better themselves and the group (and thereby themselves, and thereby...etc) and not depend solely on outside leadership to tell them what to do. outside control won't disappear--it is far too theoretical and utopian to be worth bringing up yet--but even under that, the sort of freedom that's available from being able to have a community policing and looking out for itself severely reduces the need for that outside control, that outside assistance that often comes at a great price. it's a matter of unity.

Foamer

I apologize if this doesn't make sense, when I started typing I had one forty, now I have two in me...just as a disclaimer. But even if a community looked out for and defended itself, what do you with the ******, the murderer, the bike thief? Do you punish them? Do you kill them? What? What comes next? How can you let a ****** free on the streets? Law and order can make sense at times. It can be diminished to petty ****, but when real **** happens, locking people up isn't a bad thing.

cew

Have known a few cops who were decent people, and I've had one nice dealing with a cop who ended up throwing out my ticket (I was driving). Other than that I've had a lot of bad experiences with police and I generally don't like/trust them. I've always wondered, what kind of person decides to go into law enforcement? Sure, there are the starry eyed idealists, but it seems like it's a career path that is going to appeal mostly to the jock mentality; cynics and people who want power. On the other hand, it's a gritty, thankless job. Obviously there is no simple solution, but I think what can make things better is:

A) Less ridiculously BS laws (end the drug war, etc.)
B) More cops who are natives of the community they patrol
C) More accountability (chief of police becoming an elected office maybe?)

lawlasaurus

apparently, in this modern day and age, we cannot protect ourselves and our communities. it'd be nice, but we cannot consistently enforce standard laws on an individual basis. the world today is alot like orwell's 1984, but with a big twist. there's not necessarily an immortal ruling "Party," but a social machine of value far greater than any individual: "Can you not understand, Winston, that the individual is only a cell? The weariness of the cell is the vigour of the organism." thus we designate an enforcement group to preserve ourselves. and without the social standard, there would probably be no bfssfg, no internet, no bicycle industry, no technological progression etc. some anarcho-primitivists idealize the absence of all these...

kjohnnytarr

We need to copy the Japanese Police model. They get stuff done with a brain.