jussik

No, this does not apply to DA high flange track hubs, only the low flange ones.

I_luv_hooters

universal cycles has a good price on miche primatos (fixed/fixed). anyone use these? i'd like to upgrade from formulas to a higher-end hub. wonder if these are a good enough step up.

roadfix

With my riding style, both my vintage pista and sheriff's star hubs have a million-in-one chance of failure on the street. I'm not concerned. They've been fine for over ten years so far.

barba

Miche hubs are nice, but I don't think I would spend the money to upgrade from Formula (which I think are actually very nice). The one exception might be if I was going to use my old wheels to build up another bike.

InternetDisease

...

I_luv_hooters

my goal is to upgrade the entire wheelset (dtswiss 1.2 rims are what i really want). so i'll most likely sell my old set (velocity fusions) on craigslist and use the money to offset this upgrade. i just really like the miche hubs as far as being super high flange and the price seems so good. for twice as much i could get phils. age-old question: are phils worth it over miches?

I_luv_hooters

my goal is to upgrade the entire wheelset (dtswiss 1.2 rims are what i really want). so i'll most likely sell my old set (velocity fusions) on craigslist and use the money to offset this upgrade. i just really like the miche hubs as far as being super high flange and the price seems so good. for twice as much i could get phils. age-old question: are phils worth it over miches?

***off topic: spokes (i'm heavy and ride hard) dt straight gauge 2.0, dt double butted, or dt revolution? what do u think?

operator

Unless you need custom hole drilling or slotted holes, then no.

Cyclist0383

What don't you like about the Formula hubs that you wish to upgrade?

Landgolier

Stricter tolerances? Are you a qualified machinist with the tools to determine this, or did you just read this somewhere? If so, where?

The materials are better? It's the same steel and Al, really it is, I promise. There isn't some VIP section of the periodic table you can't get access too for under $100 a hub, and the types of alloys used in this stuff don't differ enough in price to talk about. I will give you that the formula lock nuts are made from steel that is a little too hard and brittle, but this can be remedied for $2.

The races are smoother? Apples to oranges, with a faint whiff that you don't even know what you're talking about. The formula hubs most of us use are cartridge bearing, the races are in the bearing itself. What's machined into the hub are the bearing seats, which I've looked at and they're primo.

Thread quality? Please describe for us the tools you used (or would use) to tell the difference in threading quality between formulas and more expensive hubs.

Lockrings that last? Newsflash: most formula hubsets and prebuilt wheels don't come with lockrings, and the ones that formula does sell are perfectly good. Some complete bikes do come with cheesy stamped lock rings on fomula hubs, but whose fault is that?

Axle, cone, and bearing quality is a million times better? I've never heard of any issues with the axles on formulas. Campy axles are nothing to get excited about, DA are stainless which looks great but isn't necessary, and phil uses hi-ten steel just like formula. Formulas don't even really have cones, not sure what you're talking about there. The bearings are very, very good, and when they go they can be replaced with the highest grade out there for not much money. Also, the nice thing about formulas (and phils) is that the bearings going out can't ruin the hub. If a Campy or DA hub gets run dry the races can pit, and then it's done for.

I have formulas, campy record road hubs, and a lot of good shimano stuff, and under no circumstances have I ever been able to feel the difference in any quality hub while riding. Anyone who thinks they can is full of it, hubs just don't contribute anything significant to road feel.

I_luv_hooters

Nothing. I've never had better than formula so I don't know. But again, i'm wanting to upgrade the entire wheelset mostly because I want bomb-proof dt swiss 1.2 rims.. so, this is a chance to start over with a quality hub while I'm at it. I'm only brainstorming and gathering opinions. Next I'll start adding costs, etc. Maybe I'll simply leave the formulas on and have the wheels rebuilt only w/new rims.

Cyclist0383

Unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket, or can get a good deal on boutique hubs, Formula are just fine quality wise. Mine laced to Open Pro rims are a nice wheelset for city riding. You can also replace the bearings with Phil Wood bearings for around $20.

paulv

please don't read your nice track bikes on the street.

vee_dub

For suntour superb pro hubs..is the flange strong??? I wouldnt want to abuse the hub...

I_luv_hooters

Admitedly, i want to look at my entire wheelset and know i've got the best. Call me a poseur. I admire bikes that have it together. When I see big flange Miche , DA, or Phils, I feel jealous inside. So perhaps that is my real reason for upgrading. You can start insulting now - but at least I admit it! Another thing... I may have less than Formula. I have just assumed that my Milwaukee hubs are Formula.

Cyclist0383

Then get some Phil Wood hubs, they are very nicely finished with an excellent guarantee.

paulv

very soft. worst idea evar. don't do it. btw, sell them to me if they are 32h. thanks

Landgolier

MKE = Dimension hubs, perfectly good stuff, just not as many of them out there as formula.

vee_dub

I could get another set of 32s for u...pm' me (just so u know I am from Sydney).
But i dont think they are very soft, may be I love my wheelset too much. I abuse my formula/deep v badlee and its holding up very well.

InternetDisease

this should be a sticky.

operator

Why?

Langdolier refutes the quoted post with nothing but "where's your proof" statements everywhere while providing no proof of his own counterclaims.

Let's do this one by one.

By the same token, do you have proof that Dura ace hubs aren't made to stricter tolerances than say a formula hub? Or did you just read this somewhere? If so where?

And if you've ever actually replaced the stock cart 6000 bearings on formula hubs, you'd know that they SUCK at spinning. There's no comparision between a formula cartridge bearings vs the smoothness of a loose ball hub like the dura ace.

By the same token, let's see some proof that expensive hubs DON'T have better threading than cheaper hubs. Please describe for us the tools you used (or would use) to tell the difference between threading quality of formulas vs more expensive hubs.

That point i'll concede.

Sure doesn't sound like you've ever worked on or had to replace (STOCK) bearings for a messengers wheelset who rides in slush, snow, rain, salted roads - The bearings don't last long and don't spin well. Of course under the same conditions DA and Campy hubs would have to be repacked nearly daily but then again the superiority claims of Formula vs bling hubs is substantially overrated.

Just because it "feels no different" on the road doesn't mean that there is no difference. It might not matter to you, but it matters to others.

mander

Operator, you're missing landgolier's point in multiple places. The proffered reason to buy the expensive hubs was that they are made to "stricter tolerances", but if no one can say what those are or where they apply then this reason has no force.

I guess that cartridge bearings are more resistant than loose balls (not that this makes any difference for any of us) but you can't tell me that the bit about how "the races are smoother" (which landgolier was responding to) wasn't more or less pulled out of thin air.

I don't understand what your point about replacing messengers' bearings has to do with landgolier's saying that cartridge bearings' going out can never ruin the hub.

On the subject of very strict tolerances, here is a guy measuring the axle on a Dimension hub. This btw is a great article.

https://projekto-b.blogspot.com/2008/...-bearings.html

operator

Well you just missed the point of my post, in multiple places no less.

If no one can say that expensive hubs are made to "stricter tolerances", what's to say that they aren't? This is no better than the original claim that expensive hubs are made to "stricter tolerances". Do you get my point now? Same reasoning goes for the rest of landgoliers post.

I've revised my quoted section so people with short attention spans know what i'm directly refuting.

Doesn't make a difference to YOU maybe, sure makes a difference to me. Again, that was the point of my last sentence in post #46.

kidtwisty

wow.
there's been a lot of work put into this thread.
i like.

seaneee

Nope I am not, but lets use NJS as an example- there is a reason that formula hubs don't sport an NJS stamp. Despite all the hype, Nihon Jitensha Shinkōkai is still a a legitimate body with extremely strict standards for the products they approve. But we're talking about use on the road, so I digress.

Let's use Phil as an example here. Yes, both are made of 6000 series ai. Formula uses stock 6061 while Phil uses a proprietary 6000 series alloy custom made for them. It has a tighter grain which translates into a hub they guarantee for life against defects or breakage. That has to say something about their product- oh and no, it's not the same Al.

What I will say here is a did get ahead of myself and put loose ball hubs into the mix. But I must ask, by merely looking at the bearing seats, what qualifies you to decide they are "primo"?

I use magical tools that gingerly caress the hub thread, but seriously, why do you wanna know what's in my toolbox? We are talking hubs, not tools. But if you must know I use a DA chainwhip and Hozan locking pliers. Hopefully those pass your tool standards. But that is beside the point. And maybe this goes to the comment above about more people having formulas, but I stand by the comment that you hear more stories of stripped formula threads then any of the marquee brands.

I guess I just straight up disagree with you here. Formula lockrings are crap. They are soft and easily strip. Do a google search. I'm not alone on this one- and I'm talking about the formula ones, which in my opinion fall into the category of the cheap stamped ones.

Again, I will admit being wrong here and jumping ahead of myself by mixing comments about sealed bearing and loose bearing hubs. However, there is no way you can compare say a campy axle to a formula axle- but that is beside the point as we are talking about sealed bearing hubs. Where I totally disagree with you is when you say the bearings are "very, very good". That is just untrue. The bearings are okay, but by no means very x2 good. And if you are buying a new set of hubs, and have to replace the bearings and lockring, why not just spend a bit more and get say a miche hub you can use right out of the box?

Really, I'm with Operator on this one. There is a huge difference in smoothness between say a campy record hub and a formula or phil for that matter. That is like saying you ride both clinchers and tubulars and they feel the same.