chase.

i'd just like to note that much of the perceived 'smoothness' of spinning a given hub in your hand comes from seal drag, which loose NJS hubs don't have, and many street/road hubs have (especially those with cartridge bearings).

TimArchy

Last year I talked to a shimano engineer about radial lacing track hubs. It voids the warranty on both high and low. Or were you talking about riding on the street? Last I heard that didn't void the warranty on either.

Though a lot of companied are changing their fine print based on the increased misuse of their products. I've been out of the loop for a bit.

TimArchy

How so?

Do you mean that the friction created from seal drag is covering up the vibrations felt due to rougher races/bearings or dirty grease?

I've got a 4 year old phil on the back and a 27 year old campy record on the front. with new bearings and grease, they both feel exceedingly smooth, but the campy hub, without seals, spins more freely.




Seal drag = bad

chase.

no, the situation i was referring to was exactly what you were experiencing, that an unsealed track hub will spin more freely and feel less drag in your hand, but the effects are negligible when the wheels are mounted and you're riding the bike.

Landgolier

Indeed. It's called "cartridge bearings." However, I'm very impressed that you know how to spell

NJS regulates the equipment that can be used in a particular kind of Japanese track racing which is subject to rather large sums of parimutuel betting. Personally, I prefer the much more stringent standards of the USTA, which regulates another, much more strenuous use of 700c wheels for the ultimate purpose of gambling: harness racing. I happen to think that pulling a wheel though 6" of muck behind a 1200lb muck-emitting beast while dodging a half dozen other amphetamine-addled maniacs getting paid nowhere near enough to risk their lives for others' gain much more accurately simulates messenger work and other street riding conditions than anything that goes on at some Japanese velodrome. If it doesn't have a USTA stamp, I don't use it.

It would have saved you a lot of time if you'd just copied and pasted from the Phil Wood marketing copy:

Or maybe you actually knew that off the top of your head, and are qualified to discuss exactly why a tighter grain structure would improve the strength of something like a hub shell. If so, enlighten us.

The bearings go in evenly rather than hanging up and tipping, and when you take them out they don't scar up a certain part of the seat, which would indicate eccentricity. I measured a set and they were concentric with respect to the spoke holes to 1/20th of a mm, which is admittedly not very precise but that's what I can do with my calipers and it's definitely rounder than I can build a wheel. I don't have the tools to measure whether the seats are parallel, but that's the easiest part of manufacturing process.

I was talking tools for measuring thread quality, not tools for installing cogs. You would need such tools to actually back up the claim that one set of threading is better than another.

So wait, the crap threads on Formula's inferior Al hub stripped a STEEL lock ring? Friggin' things must be made of silly putty. Here's a pic of one, though, those concentric milling marks don't look stamped to me, but I've Been Wrong Before�™™:


DA are probably a little harder steel but aren't stainless, buy what suits your needs.

Again, if you've got materials spec sheets on campy and formula axles, cough 'em up, otherwise the logic is that they cost more so they have to be better. 26tpi is a pain in the *** anyway. I think the formula bearings are pretty good, I certainly can't see replacing them right from the start. I'm a big guy and I've got about 2000 all-weather miles on a set, one of the rear ones is just starting to need a cleanout. Most people seem to be getting a fair amount of use out of them, and they're easy to flush and lube.

I'd be interested to know what grade of bearing Miche uses that makes them cost $50 more than Formulas. A whole set of Phil-grade bearings costs like $10, Miche must be stealing them off the USS Enterprise and sending them back from the future to make them worth that much more. As for the lock ring, I don't know of any place that sells unbuilt formulas with the lock rings, and everybody and their dog sells DA lock rings, so you can use whatever you want. Speaking of lock rings, that's one good reason not to buy Miche, they don't take standard lock rings, the Miche ones are heavily beveled so you don't have much to get the tool on, and the Campy and Phil are like $25, which is just silly.

Indeed, sealed hubs feel very different in your hand than do loose ball. Again, though, if you can feel the difference on the road, donate your body to science, as thousands of engineers and scientists would love to have an instrument both that sensitive and that capable of filtering out such a huge volume of other effects.

seaneee

At this point you are just splitting hairs. You are no more qualified to answer those questions as I am. You continually ask for proof from me so I tell you what I know- based on experience and chats with those who are experienced. But then you come back comments that are just as 'unsubstantiated' as you claim mine to be.

What it comes down to is that we don't agree. Fine. There is nothing wrong with that. My experience has been more postive with hubs like campy, suntour, etc, while your has been very positive with Forumula.

But perhaps when making a counter point you could do just that, make one- Rather than resorting to some sort of smart @ss half witted comment to make you feel good about yourself.

At this point, I'm done. No more back and forth. But it would be nice for someone to chime in that does have some sort of mechanical engineering background.

Cyclist0383

^^^

Out of curiosity, have you actually used Formula hubs?

seitenryu

Well, back to...Track hubs on road NOT engineering. Just for some reference and warning after removing and cleaning my Suntour Superbe Pro/Deep V wheels I noticed something. The hubs, front and rear, had cracked (even broken free on the front) in at least 10 spoke holes each. Rear was 3x front was radial both 32 hole. The real sad part is the bearings still feel awesome even after the winter thus far. So, for bearing and seal quality, Suntour Superbe Pros seem to be VERY good. Save 'em for the track though....

seaneee

Yep. Sure have. Don't get me wrong, they weren't bad. I didn't rip them off and run out and buy the most expensive hub I could find. I rode 'em, they were fine. The I got in the practice of riding 'nicer' hubs an much preferred those over formula. Again, that's my experience and that is all I can go by.

jussik

I was saying that only based on the piece of paper that came with my brand new DA track hubs. There was a general warning not to lace Shimano hubs radially as it will void them of warranty, except a short list of certain models which all appeared to be high flange. But I think I already threw that paper away, unfortunately.

But yeah, it didn't say anything about using them/not using them on the street.

mihlbach

With your nicer hubs, were your running the same rims, the same spokes, the same tires, the same lacing pattern, riding on the same roads, etc. Because there are a lot of other variables that are far more important than the brand of hub. I prefer nicer hubs too, but its mostly based on the satisfaction of having nice hubs and very little to to with improving the ride.

MNTC

The difference between Campa, etc. and Formula to me is durability. With appropriate repacking a loose ball hub will last indefinitely, even on the road. I have a number of 40+ year old hubs that still function as new with a little attention. If my Formulas are still functioning as new in another 40 years, I would be surprised. I have a new-ish set on one bike that is great, but the three-year old set I have on another bike is feels "crunchy" when I spin the axle in the hub. I imagine this is road grit that has worked its way past the seals. If this was loose ball hub, I could repack it but since it is sealed the only thing I can do it wait for it to die.
I imagine replaceable cartridge bearing hubs are the optimal solution, I haven't ever owned a set of these though.

Muffin Man

Holy zombie thread mang

Spoonrobot 

Wow. So much wrong with that post.

1.) Formula hubs have replaceable bearings.
2.) Miles ridden, not time, is an appropriate measure of durability. It doesn't matter if parts last 40 years, if they've only been ridden a few hundred miles in that span. Put 10,000 miles a year on them and see how long they last.
3.) Learn how to service a cartridge hub. Pull the bearings for replacement, inspect the axle and put it all back together.
4.) When bumping super old threads it's generally preferred that the bumper post something worthwhile and new to the discussion. Not a bunch of irrelevant bs.

Leukybear 

Yes, stop bumping old threads w/ trivialness. Locked.