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Single fixed vs flip flop—strength

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Old 06-26-09 | 11:10 AM
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Single fixed vs flip flop—strength

Is there a strength difference with a dished single sided wheel over a non-dished flip-flop?
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Old 06-26-09 | 11:33 AM
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Yes. Dished wheels have assymetrical spoke tension, are laterally more unstable, and spoke failure due to fatigue is much more likely. A well-built dished wheel is still plenty strong and durable, however you can get away with fewer spokes and/or a poorer quality build on a symmetrical wheel because it is an inherently more stable structure.
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Old 06-26-09 | 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mihlbach
Yes. Dished wheels have assymetrical spoke tension, are laterally more unstable, and spoke failure due to fatigue is much more likely. A well-built dished wheel is still plenty strong and durable, however you can get away with fewer spokes and/or a poorer quality build on a symmetrical wheel because it is an inherently more stable structure.
Nice answer, and my spock-like logic dictates that you are indeed correct...
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Old 06-26-09 | 02:08 PM
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Game over.

Play again?
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Old 06-26-09 | 03:44 PM
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Reset.
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Old 06-26-09 | 05:22 PM
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except 120mm one-sided fixed wheels are not dished. SS conversion (ie: formerly geared) 126/130mm wheels, sure.
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Old 06-26-09 | 05:32 PM
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The real question is: will I die if I ride an dished freewheel converted to single speed versus an undished wheel with a flip-flop hub?

Depends upon the quality of the wheel build and that goes for both wheels. Geared riders put in many millions of miles a year on dished wheels and very few die; even fewer due to rear wheel failure caused by the dished spokes.

An undished wheel is stronger but the dished wheel could be stronger than you'll ever need if done right.
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Old 06-27-09 | 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bbattle
The real question is: will I die if I ride...
are you riding brakeless?
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Old 06-28-09 | 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dookie
except 120mm one-sided fixed wheels are not dished.
single sided Phil Wood HF 42.5/29.0 center to flange
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Old 06-28-09 | 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dookie
except 120mm one-sided fixed wheels are not dished. SS conversion (ie: formerly geared) 126/130mm wheels, sure.
My single sided 120mm track hub wheel is certainly dished, unless I'm totally dumb-town.
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Old 06-28-09 | 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LoRoK
My single sided 120mm track hub wheel is certainly dished, unless I'm totally dumb-town.
Severe dishing is a requirement on geared bikes, but not required on a ss or fg, regardless of whether or not it is single-sided or a flip-flop. Its possible that your wheel was dished slightly to line the cog up with the chainring. What crank, chainring, and BB are you using? A slight amount of dish, done to correct the chainline, is really nothing to worry about.
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Old 06-28-09 | 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mihlbach
Severe dishing is a requirement on geared bikes, but not required on a ss or fg, regardless of whether or not it is single-sided or a flip-flop. Its possible that your wheel was dished slightly to line the cog up with the chainring. What crank, chainring, and BB are you using? A slight amount of dish, done to correct the chainline, is really nothing to worry about.
I'm totally not worried at all, I was just curious and wanted to talk about wheels a little bit. I've included a picture. There is definitely dish here. It isn't done to alight the cog, it's done because the hub is one sided. I mean, unless I'm really not getting it at all. Crank, chainring and BB are all Sugino 75. I don't see how you could have a one sided hub and not have some dish. Not extreme like a roadbike, of course, but how would you keep the wheel centered in the frame without some dishing when the drive side of the hub shell doesn't extend as far as the non-drive side to accommodate threading for the cog?

Sorry the picture uploaded sideways for some reason.
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Old 06-28-09 | 08:20 PM
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I could be wrong, but from the looks of that wheel, what you seem to have is a rear wheel built for multigear use that has a single speed freewheel on it instead.

However, it is potentially possible that a wheel could be relaced with equal length spokes and shifting of axle spacers could center the rim on the hub.
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Old 06-28-09 | 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by droobieinop
I could be wrong, but from the looks of that wheel, what you seem to have is a rear wheel built for multigear use that has a single speed freewheel on it instead.

However, it is potentially possible that a wheel could be relaced with equal length spokes and shifting of axle spacers could center the rim on the hub.
You're wrong. It's a Phil Wood single fixed track hub.
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Old 06-28-09 | 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LoRoK
I don't see how you could have a one sided hub and not have some dish. Not extreme like a roadbike, of course, but how would you keep the wheel centered in the frame without some dishing when the drive side of the hub shell doesn't extend as far as the non-drive side to accommodate threading for the cog?

Sorry the picture uploaded sideways for some reason.
Indeed you wheel is dished. It just depends on how the flanges are spaced from the hub center. That old Phil hub of yours definately looks like it requires dishing. I don't really have any experience with Phil hubs, but I've encountered numerous one-sided hubs that are either not dished or have so little dish that its not visible. For instance, check out the flange spacing on Dura Ace hubs. The one-sided version needs about 2mm of dish. https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont...e-hb_road.html
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Old 06-28-09 | 09:26 PM
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Edit: I see what they did there, there's a little bump on the non drive side that is about the same size as the drive side's threads.

Edit #2: So, while a Dura-ace hub is built to be symmetrical even though it's one sided, my Phil hub isn't. Are there any advantages to an asymmetrical wheel? If a symmetrical wheel is going to suffer less from lateral stress and fatigue, it would make sense that all hubs would be built with symmetry in mind. Since they aren't, I guess there must be some kind of benefit? Is there?

Last edited by LoRoK; 06-28-09 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 06-28-09 | 10:00 PM
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Perhaps, and I'm taking a stab in the dark here (and mostly thinking geared) but, balance and easier maintenance.

Wouldn't a frame have to be wider on the drive side to accomidate gears on a symmetrical hub? Unless its an IGH? Which could be difficult to maintain?

I realize I might be reaching, I'm just thinking about possible evolutionary development.
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Old 06-29-09 | 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by LoRoK
Edit: I see what they did there, there's a little bump on the non drive side that is about the same size as the drive side's threads.

Edit #2: So, while a Dura-ace hub is built to be symmetrical even though it's one sided, my Phil hub isn't. Are there any advantages to an asymmetrical wheel? If a symmetrical wheel is going to suffer less from lateral stress and fatigue, it would make sense that all hubs would be built with symmetry in mind. Since they aren't, I guess there must be some kind of benefit? Is there?
Having the left flange spaced out farther (like with your hub) will increase the lateral stiffness of the wheel, but only in one direction. However, its still going to result in lower spoke tension on the left side. If you pluck your right and left spokes, you should be able to hear a minor difference in tone. I don't see a real benefit to it, but the amount of dish is so minor that its not going to make much of a difference either way.
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