the only reason petroleum is such a popular source of fuel, and the only reason that internal combustian engines are so neccessary is because:
a) they make it easy to produce a lot of energy with little human output (comparatively)
b)at the time they were beginning to become popular, it was easy to consume as much fuel and pollute as much as you wanted without seeing the harm it would cause in the future.
Because of these reasons, people began making massive amounts of money. And because those who have the money control the shape of society (in modern times), society was built to be dependant on fossil fuels and internal combustion (why are there few sidewalks in the suburbs? beacuse they were built under the assumption that everyone who lived there should have a car).
to answer the question of why a better source of energy (with respect to pollution, efficiency, and cost) hasn't been made popular yet, the oil and coal companies have been actively working to maintain their power in the market. They buy up patents on alternative fuel sources (and if they can't buy you out they use their power in the government and the media to make sure no one takes you seriously) and energy technologies and sit on them and quietly do research so that when the time comes that we must switch to a new source of energy, they will still be the ones who make all the money. But they're going to push that time back as far as possible b/c for right now, they can make a lot more money off of fossil fuels than any other form of fuel.

tim

It's pretty obvious what is going to happen when the gas runs out. A loner, with help from an eccentric gyro pilot, will stumble upon the last refuge of civilization with a refinery in the middle of the desert. A band of baddies will try and sack the city. The loner and a tanker of gas will escape in a thrilling vehicle chase from the band of rebels. The guy with the assless pants will die.

I was more getting towards the fact that they are closer to the need to survive - they know it. We could go and try and plunder them, but if we were missing our infrastructure, we would not have the resources to go and steal their rutabagas. Would someone here put a gun in my face, steal the ramen from my cupboard and my bike? Most likely yes. Would two farmers living next to eachother in a third world country go after each other's land and crops - that I am less sure of. They have already been living side by side probably for generations, and would feel the impact of the crash less.

There is something to be said that food aid and medical aid would not be able to reach the more remote areas of the world. Their population has been growing through (largely, not completly) aid and technology from the developed world. I don't believe that birth rates are up any higher than the growth rate of the population. What has changed is the survival rate. Even a few hundred years ago here in the US, it wasn't uncommon for parents to lose half of their children. There's a reason women with 'child bearing' hips were the most desirable - because people died. Now that we have lowered the child mortality rate accross most of the planet, populations are moving beyond the level that their environment can sustain them. This has happened before, with several Native American populations, long before Europeans came in (mound builders in the midwest and the maya both come to mind)...

Wait a minute - I'm in the freakin single speed & fixed gear forum, not the politics forum....

CARBON FIBER STASH POCKET!!!!!

Nope. Just means they **** a lot and the UN comes in and feeds them when they starve.

Where are the population densities at? Yeah. Think about it.

You ramble on more than the drunk at the Kenwood intersection.

Will there be a band of children living in a canyon near the wreck of an airliner? Will there be a little man with a brain that rides on the shoulder of a big man that wears a metal mask? Will they raise pigs for the methane? I want to know!!!!

Yes fellow prophet! That is EXACTLY what is going to happen. Unfortunally I haven't heard back from the mayor regarding my proposal to build a thunderdome in the city.

Two men enter, one man leave!

Wow - Two prophets on one board! Who'd have thunk it?

That just means the little kids with the boomerang will be our future. Long live the boomerang kids!!!

What color messenger bag should I buy?
Do Suzue Basic Hubs suck?

You just reiterated my point. In your words, "they **** a lot", well we're all guilty of that (thank God). Then the industrialized internal combustion driving United Nations comes in and feeds them. Sounds to me like the western world is enabling all the world's poor people to survive and propogate. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the population density comment. China and India are the most populated countries in the world (I believe). While some folks like to gripe about the fact that the US accounts for only a small percentage of the world population yet consumes most of the world's energy, I would kindly point to your statement above claiming that the UN is keeping the massive poor populations alive. Who do you think foots the majority of the bill for that? (I'll give you a hint, it's not China or India).

Look dude, just because I called you out on your childish troll post doesn't mean that you have to attack me personally. I'm simply stating my opinion. I believe it's foolish to bask in a world full of creature comforts created by industrialization and claim to be anti-industry. I didn't call you crunchy granola or whatever you claimed in your previous post. I don't feel threatened by the fact that you have an opinion. I think your method of stating your opinion is a bit weak and somewhat coloquial.

Although I'm NOT pro-tinfoil hat wearing mewling hypocrit, I am pro-environment. I hunt, fish, backpack, camp, mountain bike, and respect the environment just as much as some boob who rides a bicycle and feels self-riteous enough to say that everyone should give up their cars.

By the way, I don't write with a thesaurus, I'm just that good

THAT... Is quite possibly the best post I have ever read on any forum ever

Seriously...

Suzue Basics wouldn't last a week in a post-apocolyptic environment. Definitely get sealed bearings, watch out for the assless pant guy. Bag color doesn't matter as long as it's big enough to comfortably harbor a feral kid with a boomerang. Buy a lot of dog food now while you have a chance.

Actually, you called me on my post that said you're a troll. You don't post here until this arguement. Thus, you're a troll. By that anology, I say that you're a person that comes out only at some opertune moment to get some sort of personal gain. You're not doing anything to participate in this forum other than start something. Label that colloquial all you want (at least spell it right), but this is a conversation of sorts.

Please beleive my opinion is weak. Please do, but that's your opinion. (Sadly, you won't and are un able to step back and look at things from other perspectives.) You are not "simply" stating your opinion, you're up on your box lecturing and being as condescending as possible. It's very evident. That said when someone, in this case me, decides you're a prick you get upset. I called you troll. I could also say you are a self righteous ass clown. As nothing but foulness comes out of your mouth and you're basically painted up entertainment. My direct insults are nothing more or less than your cleverly worded condescending insults. You can be upset about my actions, but yours are the same as mine. I can at least admit to them.

Anyway, all that said and done. The SUV is the problem, however it's more the indication of a social ill than not. But you can't enforce common sense.

And when you're done, you'll get back under the bridge whence you came. I predict this with much confidence.


Do you ride fixed?

don't get me wrong, i hate SUVs and consumer culture too. i just don't think there's anything to be done about it. people are going to buy useless **** no matter what. i do my best to not buy very many brand new things. i buy shoes about once a year and new chains/cassettes/cogs/tires/tubes for my bikes accordingly. other than that, most of my money goes to pay bills and rent and student loans and food.

Actually, a simple search on my username would have shown you that I have indeed posted here before. Several times actually, and I can't even begin to imagine how defending myself from your personal attacks could possibly be construed as pursuing personal gain. It's more like clubbing a baby seal actually

That being said, PLEASE do not get the far-fetched idea that I could possibly be upset by a total stranger calling me a "prick" and an "ass clown" on an internet forum. On the contrary, I find it quite amusing that you'd stoop to such levels and have the audacity to claim that their is foulness coming out of my mouth.

All of this aside, I am efforting on my first fixed gear machine. I have purchased some Phil Wood hubs and mavic rims. I'll have my LBS lace them up for me as soon as I find just the right bike. I've got a (geared) Fisher MTB and I also bomb around on a 1963 Schwinn Typhoon coaster brake cruiser that I rescued from the garbage. I drive, not one, but two Subaru internal combustion masterpieces and I own a pickup truck but only drive it when the need arises.

Ahh... yes it is about scale and aftereffect. And you seem to have missed the subtleties in my argument so I will elaborate. Creating a bicycle and transporting the parts, operating the production facilities, etc all take energy. That energy comes from somewhere. It is not a small amount either. But in comparison to the per-unit opertaing cost of running an automobile, it is smaller. However, you missed my other point. Everything we do has an environmental impact. Many of these things are loosely coupled yet no less interdependent of one another. The example I gave was that of sending a message in a web forum. Think about it. For every byte you type out in your message, it takes energy to store, forward and then store again. This is not a one-time thing either. It is usually retained and kept indefinately on N-numbers of machines. And everytime a user requests a copy, it is once again sent out across the wire. Add in other resource overheads and I'm willing to bet that the indirect impact on the environment to generate the energy needed to support a single message on average is greater than that which the average automobile driver does per day with their car. So before people go out and crucify others for ruining the environment with their hobbies they should take a long hard look at themselves because hypocrisy is a pretty ugly thing.

Jesus christ, this straw man has a crew cut and everything.

One can condemn rediculously large and horribly inefficient automobiles without opposing internal combustion engines in general. There are very good uses for gasoline burning engines. They will probably persist for another 50 years, even if society were to be overwhelmed with eco-consciousness.

That being said, SUVs for suburban commuters are wasteful, dangerous **** boxes. Their prevalence points to an illness within our society. It indicates that we are so obsessed with happiness through better and neater THINGS that we are willing to destroy ourselves to get them. Asses get fatter, petroleum reserves get smaller, the environment becomes more polluted, traffic deaths increase...

In terms of everything but convenience, SUVs are terrible. When convenience is the supreme motivator, a society is doomed. SUV supporters suck my b4lls.

You are vastly overestimating the cost of a single message, but for arguements sake, lets say that the use of a web board during a single day equals the amount of gas burned by a suburban commuter driving a gas guzzling SUV.

What is gained by the use of the SUV over a compact car? Nothing. The vast majority of drivers of SUVs do not take advantage of their capabilities. What is gained by a message posted in this forum? Communication between people, for the benefit of all. A sense of community. Human connectedness.

Its man for himself, vs. man for things.

My brother... I'm not sure where you pulled this little slice of wisdom from but allow me to enlighten.

Covenience is, has always been, and will always remain the supreme motivator of any society.

Did someone say something in this thread about walking instead of riding their bike?

So I searched, and you've posted a handful of times. My apoligies, I've never read a post with your name and I read a few.


Your initial post and the following ones (our dispute aside) are what I'm refering to. Condescending.


Well, you're on the defensive, so appearances as they are..

Amusing or not, don't think I'm stooping. Perhaps it's my average, or even more so, perhaps my all time high. Sorry that I don't meet your standards.



Three cars, one person?

I shall rephrase to "short term convenience" and stand by my shiznit.

Wasn't I being rather offensive and troll-ish? Efforts will have to be doubled


No, actually 3 cars, 3 bicycles, 2 humans, 4 dogs, 4 snakes, scads of tropical fish, and a pound cake.

You've really got a lot of anger William... You know what they say about guys that drive big SUV's eh?

And you're a better man for that shiznit crunks... Touche...

We are not talking about the SUV soccermom who rolls out of the driveway everyday in her Escalade to take the kids to school half a mile away (this happens in my neighborhood). I implore you to read back to the origin of this argument. However, for your benefit, I will summarise.

1. William Karsten posted that he has witnessed many people who buy SUVs and do not utilise their capabilities thus leading to waste.
   
2. dobber posted implying that William Karsten has an SUV for no purpose.
   
3. I posted in an attempt to clarify William Karsten's statements saying that he did indeed use his SUV for offroading.
   
4. s2sxiii posted saying that William Karsten has been known to offroad his Jeep.
   
5. dobber implied that if it's for a hobby then it's not legit.
   
6. I countered by saying that many things we do, we do because we like to do it and some of those things have as much an impact as offroading an SUV for fun.

Yes, using BikeForums help share ideas. It helps us communicate. Is it essential? Some would say that it is because it helps fullfill a part of the human condition. Some people take pleasure from going out into nature and enjoy the challenges involved with offroad driving. Is it essential? Some would say that it is because it fullfills a part of the human condition that requires a certain degree of liesure activity. We all have different values... we sometimes have the same values. Try not to impose your personal values on others.

But you do impose because your values f#ck up my planet.