Oh come on. Do we really need to go down this hole? There's a large gap between those who are forced into prostitution and those that choose it, I'll grant you that. The former is abhorrent for other reasons but the latter can be humanizing, yes. I've known (or known third-party) sex workers who are perfectly happy and fulfilled with their career.

I know it sounds crazy, but women want to have sexual relationships just as much a men do. The problem is that society has crammed it down their throats from the day they could understand language that it's not acceptable. There's a reason the language we use to describe sex and getting sex as a 'chase' or a 'catch' or a 'score' (here's a really great TED talk on the subject). Tinder, and in a larger context, the spreading zeitgeist of sexual acceptance, is proof that these social norms were never fair, or universally accepted. We're just finally starting to live in a world where it's not punishable (literally) to express these ideas.

When Mumonkan says "women aren't objects" what I see is really "people aren't objects... unless they want to be."

Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent, it's a subject that I feel strongly about.

so does this mean you can't take your 3grand road bike for a leisurely spin? like ever?

or mebbe he was tired.

I was assuming the latter situation.

I have no idea what you mean by "humanizing" then. To me, "dehumanizing" means that the situation reduces the saliency of the persons inner life. I have a hard time believing that there are many people who visit prostitutes for the purpose of interacting with a person who likes to be paid for sex. They generally don't care about the overall well-being of the prostitute or even what they are thinking so long as the sex is good. People use prostitutes as a means to an end.

No one is denying that and my position would be the same as applied to grindr.

Look, it isn't that I think this behavior is immoral or taking advantage of anybody. In fact, I'm certain that there is more than a few long-term meaningful relationships that started after an encounter on grindr or tinder.

The problem I have with the whole setup is that it makes it too easy to see someone as a fish "in a very small barrel", and I don't think that is healthy regardless of whether they want to be seen that way or not. I don't think you can be authentic if you view yourself or other people in those terms and I think doing so is a step away from happiness. To do so places too much attachment on empty desires and not enough consciousness on what is actually going on here and now and ignores the possibility of real connection, however ephemeral.

In my opinion you don't get kitted for a leisurely ride but I'm also unaffected by most of the bicycling trends like leg shaving, crabon or gravel bikes.

not everyone is looking for a relationship, and the context of happiness is based entirely on the person

if youre just trying to have a sexual encounter with someone theres no need to be authentic

different strokes

getting "kitted" isn't a big deal to everyone

I'd say that's probably true for street prostitutes. The sex workers that I know (granted, it's just one first hand (friend, nothing more), and one who's a friend of my roommate) would tell you differently, though. They're more on the companion/escort side of things, though. I'm just saying people have all sorts of reasons for things they do. Saying 'all prostitution is dehumanizing' is not taking that into consideration. For the ones that I know, their chosen career makes them who they are, is empowering and, in that sense, humanizing. Lots of really interesting stories, but this isn't really the place for them.


Agree to disagree, then. I think there is absolutely a difference between emotional and sexual fulfillment and that they are frequently not mutually exclusive, but can be. As long as both parties are on the same plane, I don't take issue with it. Happiness is a moving target that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and as soon as you try to prescribe it to someone, you alienate a whole host of others. I find it interesting when people view sexual desires as 'empty' or 'not as important as emotional desires', though. I think they are both rich with emotional context and fulfillment. My context comes from somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, though, whereas I believe you're addressing a more extreme position on the spectrum of "I don't care about you as a human, I just want to get what I want." From that vantage point, I agree; that's not healthy. I think there are much larger issues with people like that, though. Also, I don't think online dating, Tinder, Grindr, etc supports that level of interaction.

My buddy I mentioned earlier loves to go out to events, restaurants, bars, etc. and uses Tinder to find people to do that with. Sometimes they have a great evening, but don't go home together, most of the time they do. Is either scenario better? Who knows but I disagree that either one is healthier than the other.

I think it's rad that we can even have this conversation, though. Even better is that both our points of view are 100% valid - the fact that we disagree is fine, as long as we don't guilt people or force them to hold one view higher than the other because we think that way, therefore everyone​ should think that way.

Everyone is already in a relationship with each other and it is just a matter of how you choose to view it. There is no need to be authentic in anything but Jandro already pulled the "there's lots of studies that support the idea that you should be you" thing on this forum and I believe that. Being inauthentic will make you less happy. Remember, Mumokan what Mumon said: "Whoever does whatever they desire and forgets about the world as it is, falls into a deep pit."

I agree with most of what you said. I'm certain that tindr can be used in a perfectly healthy way.

One thing I will add is that I don't think that trying to fulfill "emotional desire's" is any better than trying to fulfill sexual desires. I would distrust the impulse to go on OKCupid in order to get "love" as well. You shouldn't go into these things with so much of an agenda. People need love and sex but for the most part those things should just be side effects of living a good life rather than actual pursuits in themselves.

i think that you guys should stop fighting and have sex

I thought we were having sex. Wait, is this the internet again?

I don't know if he's my type. Though, he does sound intelligent so that's one box, checked.

I mostly agree with a few sticking points, but I've already covered them.

So uh... Hit my inbox with the cybering, guys.

the beard friction would start fires, its for everyones safety really

sorry guys i can be very childish sometimes...

I was scared to check this thread after I saw I had quoted posts

Today I did some dirt jumping before the weather got bad and just about finished my christmas shopping.

First day back under 195 today. 20 to go.

Today I: slept through my alarm after a later-than-expected night, missing my group ride. I'll probably try to ride a bit tonight to make up for. I also really don't feel like being at work... one of those days.

have some promiscuous sex...usually does the trick for me.

Maybe that's why he had a later than expected night.

today im glad i rode.

"huge storm" coming and either i came home before the real **** hit the fan or its all hype, cuz it wasnt that bad at all.

The worst comes overnight with about 3" of rain and high winds.

Just ordered a GoPro Hero Black (non +) because the Silver + I bought had terrible video quality so I sent it back to REI (great return policy).

Anyone else have the Black?

I have the black and I finally got it to work using a transcend card. The samsung they recommend on the website does not work worth a ****.

The blacks were on sale yesterday bestbuy for $249 using a special code. I'm a little bummed considering I paid like $80 more a few weeks ago. Oh well.

After the October storm years ago all these "storms" seem like nothing anymore. Not complaining, jussayin'.