LMaster

Backstory - Mostly run, but I've been riding a little more with the family and because of an injury that keep me away from running for several months. Moral of the story; it's been fun for me and I've been thinking about taking it a little more seriously and seeing what I think of this sport

However, I don't have a clue for what to do training wise cycling, or how to put together a schedule with that has reasonable cohesion and purpose. So with that in mind, any good recommendations of how I ought to be approaching this and what constitutes good, smart training for a new cyclist?

If it helps I can provide background information on my current state of "training" and my fitness.

Thanks in advance!

chasm54

How many hours a week do you have available to train? Do you have a heart-rate monitor and understand HR-based training? How much cycling have you been doing so far, and how fit are you from running?

LMaster

Hours - 10-15 is no problem, any more than that would be too much in late Aug when school starts back up

HRM - No, I don't as in running you can be effective just going by pace/feel so I never really had the incentive to go out and spend 50-200+ on a decent HRM. Definitely understand it however.

Cycling History - Strava has me at 750 miles since the start of the year when I started using it it, probably a third or more of that is in the last 4 weeks. Before this year I might have cycled something like 200 miles a year, just an occasional ride for fun with friends/family or something.

Fitness - Running wise I was actually injured for 2 years with a groin issue that turned into a hip issue. Pre-injury I was 5'8" and 135 (61 kg) and in about 16:30 shape for 5k. Currently I'm around 155 (70) and probably in low 18/high 17 shape.

Cycling wise I have only a MTB to ride on at the moment, but am almost certainly going to be buying an entry level road bike in the next few weeks...its much more the riding I prefer. I know average speed means next to nothing in cycling but on the MTB I tend to cruise around at 15-17 on the somewhat hilly/rugged main gravel MUP around here. Rode 50M on the roads/MUP on Sunday at around 18 something and was fresh enough to run 6M a few hours later in the evening. Not really sure as far as wattages/FTP goes, estimating from the calculators I can find it seems like I can do 360W for 5 min effort and around 300W for 1 hour effort. That's just estimating from calculators though so that might not be even close to real.

Not sure how much it affects training but I live/ride in Colorado at 7000'

chasm54

OK. Between 10 and 15 hours per week is pretty close to ideal, in my opinion. If you're still going to run, adjust the time spent on the bike downwards. So, for the sake of argument, say 15 hours a week if you're not running, but ten hours a week if you're running two or three hours.

Sounds as if you're a bit overweight but pretty aerobically fit. Being in Colorado won't make any difference to your training because you're accustomed to the altitude. But if you ever go and compete at sea level you'll have an advantage, of course!

The big changes from running to cycling are, first, that cycling is non weight-bearing. So you can spend much longer riding than running because it doesn't beat you up as much. And second, the way the leg muscles are used is very different. Because your cardiovascular system is in good shape, that means that your legs rather than your heart and lungs will be the limiter to start with. That being so, a good strategy is to use a slightly lower gear than feels natural for a given speed, and pedal faster. That is harder on the heart and lungs but easier on the legs. Typically, fit and experienced cyclists will pedal at a higher cadence (>90 rpm) than beginners, because their CV system can take it and it minimises muscular fatigue.

Without a HRM you're going to have to go on perceived effort. Broadly speaking, since you have upwards of 10 hours per week to train I'd spend about 70 percent of your time at cruising speed. That will build more aerobic fitness and build you a good base. Throw in a couple of sessions of maybe an hour each at a more strenuous, but not brutal, pace - the sort of effort that allows you to talk, but not in complete sentences. Then a couple of times a week do some high-intensity intervals. Thirty seconds going as hard as you can, thirty sessions rest, repeated ten times, is a good one. Don't make all your rides the same length. A couple at three hours, plus four shorter ones (some intense, some very easy) might be a good mix.

These sessions don't have to be strictly separated. Being in Colorado you'll have plenty of opportunities to ride hills. A long ride that is mostly at cruising speeds but includes some hard efforts on the hills is a good way of mixing it up and staying interested. But plan your rides so you have time for recovery. Just like running, putting in hard efforts day after day is a recipe for exhaustion, not progress. That doesn't mean you have to spend many days off the bike altogether, just that some days (usually the ones following your hardest sessions) need to be done at a very easy pace - so that it feels ridiculously easy.

None of this is rocket science. There are plenty of books on cycle training, but most will focus on either HR training or powermeters. You might not want to make that investment until you're convinced you're sticking with it.

One other thing. When you buy your road bike, get some advice on making it fit you properly. Good bike shops will do this, and it makes a massive difference to your comfort and efficiency.

LMaster

Thanks for the feedback!

Makes sense on the using a lower gear, as I've definitely noticed exactly what you talked about. My first few rides back in the early part of the year I was losing ability to put out power after less than 60 min, and that was at an effort I would certainly call easy. It's been getting better though, and I'm getting closer to reaching that point where I can really hurt aerobically on the bike the same way as in running.

I think I'm getting you on the training, just to check...something approximately like this

M -60 min very easy
Tu - 90 min w/middle 60min strong but controlled
W - 60-90 min easy w/ 10x30s on, 30s off
Th -2-3 hr easy spin
F - 90 min over varied terrain, throwing in some hard efforts on hills
S - Off/XT/Very easy spin
S -3 hour easy

I don't mean that as a strictly rigid time/day schedule, more just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

One other question....group rides. I could see that being really fun, but the downside is I know next to nothing about cycling in a paceline, nor do I know what to expect as far as ability goes. Is it worth finding a good group to ride with once per week, or should I wait until I have more experience for that?

*Noted about getting a good fit on the bike

chasm54

Yes, you're getting me. I don't think I'd ride seven days a week as well as running, though...

Once you have a road bike, I'd certainly encourage you to find a group. Clear communication is key. They need to tell you what to expect in terms of speed, distance etc. and you need to explain to them that you're a beginner. Riding in a group is not necessarily the same as riding in a paceline - I'd say it would be a good idea to get reasonably comfortable riding at farily close quarters in a group before trying a paceline. Ideally you'd find someone in the group in a leadership role who was prepared to give you some advice.

It's easier to maintain higher average speeds in a group because you learn to draft - that is, to take advantage of the reduced wind resistance by sheltering behind other riders. The whole art of paceline riding is staying close behind the guy in front and rotating so that everyone does short turns at the front - "pulls" - and is protected the rest of the time. It can be exhilarating and very quick. But it takes practice to stay safe.

LMaster

Gotcha, didn't realize there pace-line also designated a specific type of riding. Again, thanks for the advice. I'll start there and possibly update this with progress as I go.

Thanks!

TexMac

5 8" 155 overweight? then i'm obese at 5 8' 175lb
One thing i learned the hard way as a new cyclist is to listen to your body. If you feel you need a day off then do it or else you risk some injury that might keep you off the bike for long.

LMaster

Depends on if you were a skinny runner dude first.

I know some guys with decent muscle that are absolutely 5% BF style shredded at 175 5'8". For me though race lean is definitely on the order of 135-140. I guess that type of weight ought to be good for climbing though if I understand it right. Then again...gotta stop being lazy and get back there first

chasm54

I don't know, maybe you're unusually muscular. I do know that at 6'3" my racing weight is about 190 lbs, and even then I have a little more fat than I'd like.

LMaster

Been a long time, but it's time for an update. I've had some really kickass winter training and acquired a power meter during the process as well (a steal in my opinion, $250 for powertapG3 lightly used on ebay).

Main focus has been lots of tempo/threshold type work over the winter, but no crazy hard workouts so as to burn out before the important stuff in the summer. Training definitely went awesome. Best 20' power in the fall was 290W effort, a week ago I blew that away with 320W for 20min, with a pretty aggressive start of 345W for the first 5'.

Also had my first race, Lookout Mtn HC TT. While it was a terrible race (295W avg for 4.3 w/kg, considering I had just done 320W) it was a good learning experience. Kinda blew the race going that hard Wednesday (followed up that 20 min power best with another hard 30 minutes of riding) and then was dealing with a cold to boot.

I'm very, very excited for this season though. I've been eating good recently and weight is coming off steadily. Somewhere between 60-63kg is definitely a reasonably target. Combine that with 320-330W ability for 20' power at 7k' and I should have plenty of power as I start racing more, especially in the mountains.

With that in mind, my bike handling is going to need SPADES of work. General handling is somewhere between poor and below average, with a large dose of skittishness thrown in. I probably need to race them, but crit type races seem like an impossibility to me right now given this. I get gapped sometimes around corners on the few group rides I've been on, let alone a race situation where people are pushing it. Descending is even worse. On several local climbs my descent speeds are in the teens when top rides are coming down in the mid 30s. I think I understand the concepts and technique, but just lack the skill and most importantly confidence to really go after it on turns, not knowing exactly how much is too much lean before I go down (even though I'm obviously nowhere close to that point).

Dutch Jazz

Great succes story, sounds great!

Maybe getting some rollers to improve your bike handling skills? Obviously it won't improve your pack-riding skills but it should make you more comfortable on the bike and thus allow you to focus more on the movements in the pack when you are racing.

RR3

60Kg and 330W for 20 minutes. Let's call it 310W FTP. Looks Cat 1 to me. Assuming you are a Cat 4 or 5, you should attack hills and should win/place in every race. I'm jealous. Just sounds like you need to learn how to ride the bike because descending at 18 mph when others are coming down at 35mph is a problem. Is your bike not stable at 30+?

LMaster

Cat5. Just had my first "race" (HC TT) last Saturday. Keep in mind that both those 330/60 are on the optimistic side. Currently 320W is best 20' power, might be able to find another 10W but no guarantees. That and when I do a 20' test I do it fresh. My guess is that FTP for me would be closer to 90-92% of 20' power. I'd say 290W and 63kg is the safe option, 295-300W/62kg is realistic and 310W/60kg is on the optimistic side. I was close to 60kg running my best, but might be a little heavier now from extra bike muscle. I'll just have to see as weight comes off where race lean is.

Right now though weight is 68-69kg, so still a ways to go.

As for the descending, nothing to do with stability. I've just always been a very cautious, play it safe kind of person. Bottom line is I think I'm scared to lean/corner anywhere near as much as I could. It gets especially bad on switchbacks picking up speed where you essentially have to increase the amount your cornering as you pick up speed exiting. It will improve with continued practice and especially as I start doing more rides trying to keep up with other riders and being able to watch and learn what lines are possible at what speeds.

RR3

TrainingPeaks Power Profiles for Cyclists | Bicycling

If your power meter is accurate and you learn tactics and handling, expect wins. Even with the higher weight and lower power levels in your response, this power to weight ratio puts you into Cat 2 territory. I am just an old crappy Cat 3....anyways, maybe look into a camp if you can.

Cycling Climbing Camp - Colorado Springs - CTS

chasm54

Really good that you recognise this. Too many people think that all they have to have to be a racer is a huge FTP. Find somewhere that does skills clinics. You need to get comfortable at close quarters, so that you aren't nervously hitting the brakes as soon as your front wheel is within a foot of someone's rear. You need to be able to handle contact without panicking - find someone who will ride slowly with you on grass (you're going to fall off a lot) and practise contact - shoulders, elbows, wheels - until you've absorbed the counterintuitive fact that the instinctive sudden recoil from accidental contact isn't the way to keep you and others safe.

Descending you can practise on your own. Find a descent that is currently just a bit too fast and technical for you to get down without using the brakes. Keep at it, focussing on staying smooth and relaxed, and getting used to the idea that if you hit the apex and trust the bike you can get through the turns without braking. The first time you manage to do that will be a huge confidence-booster and you'll never need to touch the brakes again on that particular descent. Then move on to something a little more challenging, and so on.

And have a look in the racers forum. Either the 33 or the master's forum, depending on your age, would be invaluable to you in terms of training tips.

LMaster

I'm aways from masters racing. 25 right now. Been reading and asking some questions in the 33', and much of the advice there mirrors yours. Especially knowing how to deal with contact.

There are indeed a few skills clinics coming up, possibly even one this weekend I can make. If not I ought to be able to grab someone from my team and get practice that way.

I think in general my plan is keep plugging away, eating right, and start hitting the group rides on Sat/Sun as well. I'll have to try to think about good descents that fit the bill you described. Many of the climbs here are pretty solid climbs with plenty of tight turns/switchbacks but there are probably some decent 1-2 mile smaller hills with wider, more residential style road turns that would allow for something of that nature.

It's worth noting that my descending is significantly worse than my cornering. Both suffer from a fear of cornering hard enough stemming from concern about not knowing what the limit is, but downhill gets me especially squirrely because you invariable pick up speed (a signficant amount of it on the 7-10% stuff) going around corners, which means the cornering has to increase. Usually I get uncomfortable, straighten a bit, and brake...or just straight come through at some really, really slow initial speed.

chasm54

It's better to be cautious than to crash, of course. And the trouble with being a nervous descender who's trying to keep up is that one enters the corner fastish, gets uncomfortable and then hits the brakes in mid-turn, which is exactly the wrong moment - often less safe than trying to make the turn at speed. The conventional advice is to get the braking done before turning in, and that's pretty sound for starters. Really good bike handlers use trail braking, like on a motorcycle, so that they spent the least possible time at the slowest speed. It's good for cornering in racing, too. But it's a pretty advanced skill, I'm not all that good at it myself.

Carbonfiberboy 

Just a couple of comments on cornering. The best way to learn to corner is on fast group rides, the theory being that if the rider in front of you can do it at that speed, so can you. IME the rider in front of you will not choose to corner at the limit. One has to leave a little in hand to allow for the unexpected in terms of road surface. However, one would hope to be riding with more experienced riders who know what they're doing. If that's not true, you shouldn't be there, either. I have occasionally dropped off a wheel and later found them off in the blackberries. So there is still some judgement involved.


Usually there will be a series of corners connected by straight bits. When riding at a good speed, the draft from the rider ahead gets longer. One can draft from 20'-30' back depending on speed if one is confident in one's aero ability. However, just like when driving a car, you're not really leaving a distance gap: it's better thought of as a time gap. So coming into a corner, you'll want to decrease the distance gap as the speed decreases, thus leaving the time gap the same. Coming out of the corner, the distance gap will increase naturally. If you leave the distance gap the same coming into the corner, you'll lose the draft coming out and open a gap, which will really PO the riders behind you. It's more dangerous to try to catch up than to hold your position. Just hold your line and match the line of the rider ahead of you. Thus learning to ride in a group will naturally teach you what to do when.


There are essentially two types of corners on a descent: sweepers and switchbacks. Sweepers are the easiest because speed will stay fairly even through the corner. Switchbacks are harder because you'll usually accelerate through the corner. The fast way through a switchback is to come in slow and exit fast, so that's another spot where it can be tricky not to get dropped as the rider ahead of you suddenly lets it run on the steep part of the switchback, having trail braked to the apex.


Always keep your head, not your wheel on your side of the centerline when you can't see that it's clear ahead.