Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Ride Clean

Old 12-18-15, 03:58 PM
  #451  
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
If a person cheats or just breaks the rules why does it matter to others?
Because people who can't value context and see only black and white aren't typically normal, healthy adults?
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-18-15, 08:48 PM
  #452  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,473

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
Cycling is a black and white sport where the winner may be determined by split seconds or split inches. So applying the rules about drugs, equipment or anything else in the sport the same way seems natural. I get that from a marketing/general public point of view there is a different face to present and context matters. I should have clarified my comment was primarily with regards to the rules/enforcement of the rules for cycling. For other sports - it depends.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 12:34 AM
  #453  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i was amused by this take on the announcement:
"Perky Lea"
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 06:27 AM
  #454  
Senior Member
 
canuckbelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 944

Bikes: Scott Foil 10, Di2

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by tetonrider
i was amused by this take on the announcement:
"Perky Lea"
Noob question. What if one has, e.g., surgery and a doctor gives a small prescription for percocet (like 5 days worth and no refills). Does one get a TUE for that even if it's in the winter and one isn't racing?

How does this stuff work in the off season? I assume during racing season one has to get a TUE...

ETA: My research suggests that a TUE is only required, for oxycodone, "in-competition": https://www.usada.org/substances/proh...athlete-guide/

Last edited by canuckbelle; 12-19-15 at 06:48 AM.
canuckbelle is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 06:58 AM
  #455  
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 752 Times in 342 Posts
doesn't matter if it's a small or large amount. if it's approved for out of competition you can use it while you're not racing. I'd have presumed that to mean something than it seems to in this case. Namely, you no longer being intoxicated from it. This seems to point it being detectable. Nonetheless, the off season is obviously out of competition.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 07:30 AM
  #456  
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Noob question. What if one has, e.g., surgery and a doctor gives a small prescription for percocet (like 5 days worth and no refills). Does one get a TUE for that even if it's in the winter and one isn't racing?

How does this stuff work in the off season? I assume during racing season one has to get a TUE...

ETA: My research suggests that a TUE is only required, for oxycodone, "in-competition": Athlete Guide to the 2016 Prohibited List | USADA
I think it would be tough to get a TUE for Percocet. It should be.

If you have surgery or a serious injury and take banned drugs during the racing season, that's fine. If you take them after you are healed, that's not fine. Using Percocet to manage pain during the racing season and to assist in sleeping? Sorry, that's not fine. The nice guy and no advantage arguments don't fly with me. It's cheating.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 09:58 AM
  #457  
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
Cycling is a black and white sport where the winner may be determined by split seconds or split inches. So applying the rules about drugs, equipment or anything else in the sport the same way seems natural. I get that from a marketing/general public point of view there is a different face to present and context matters. I should have clarified my comment was primarily with regards to the rules/enforcement of the rules for cycling. For other sports - it depends.
every post in this thread points to it not being black/white and people caring about context. think what you like. even the allowed out of competition but banned in competition is far from black/white given that it metabolizes differently in different people so your black/white rule means different things for different people. dude A can take it 2 days before a race but dude B is guilty of cheating if he takes it 2 days from a race. That's super clear.

(2 days = imaginary, I'm not googling half life of oxy or whatever)
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 10:35 AM
  #458  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,473

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
I agree determining if it is cheating requires context. But rule enforcement should be on the black and white, not based on intent/cheating.

With "legal out"/"banned in" drugs - you need to be clean the day of competition. The rider needs to make sure that they comply. If the rider accidentally has an advantage doing something against the rules I don't call that cheating - but they should be sanctioned the same - IMO, because others were not allowed that advantage.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 11:09 AM
  #459  
Senior Member
 
canuckbelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 944

Bikes: Scott Foil 10, Di2

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by shovelhd
I think it would be tough to get a TUE for Percocet. It should be.

If you have surgery or a serious injury and take banned drugs during the racing season, that's fine. If you take them after you are healed, that's not fine. Using Percocet to manage pain during the racing season and to assist in sleeping? Sorry, that's not fine. The nice guy and no advantage arguments don't fly with me. It's cheating.
Yeah, I'm talking about me and my wisdom teeth surgery, not the dude in the post.
canuckbelle is offline  
Old 12-19-15, 08:49 PM
  #460  
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,566
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 673 Times in 426 Posts
Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Noob question. What if one has, e.g., surgery and a doctor gives a small prescription for percocet (like 5 days worth and no refills). Does one get a TUE for that even if it's in the winter and one isn't racing?

How does this stuff work in the off season? I assume during racing season one has to get a TUE...

ETA: My research suggests that a TUE is only required, for oxycodone, "in-competition": Athlete Guide to the 2016 Prohibited List | USADA
You'll be fine. Getting a TUE is not fast or easy. In fact, if you applied and if you were approved, by the time you get it, you'll probably already be through your five days and it will be completely out of your system.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 12-22-15, 10:46 AM
  #461  
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 752 Times in 342 Posts
I only got hit with a $5 surcharge
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-22-15, 11:10 AM
  #462  
Senior Member
 
Duke of Kent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 4,850

Bikes: Yeti ASRc, Focus Raven 29er, Flyxii FR316

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Simple solution:

Don't fill the prescription.

The pain is hardly noteworthy and the feeling of being drugged is not something I enjoy, personally.
Duke of Kent is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 10:42 AM
  #463  
Senior Member
 
Duke of Kent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 4,850

Bikes: Yeti ASRc, Focus Raven 29er, Flyxii FR316

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I woke up to this, over on MTBR:

Anyone juicing?- Mtbr.com

This **** kills me. MTB riders/racers continually denounce those "doping roadies", yet people (who race, it seems) are contemplating it, openly, on a public forum.
Duke of Kent is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 10:55 AM
  #464  
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 752 Times in 342 Posts
pain is personal and dependent upon circumstances.

I had four impacted wisdom teeth out at once, and had complications from infected sockets for a few months. It wasn't easy, and the pain was indeed noteworthy.

I also wouldn't hesitate to percocet with broken ribs, as the healing power of getting sleep (about the most painful thing you can do with broken ribs, with the exception of sneezing) far outweighs the advantages of toughing it out.

On testosterone: The idea that guys have "that everyone is on it" or that "everyone fast is juicing <sic>" is typically a construct of their own inabilities as racers. Yes folks take PEDs. No, not every fast guy out there is a science fair project. Not everyone faster than the guy who who declares "everyone is doping," is doping.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 11:14 AM
  #465  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I woke up to this, over on MTBR:

Anyone juicing?- Mtbr.com

This **** kills me. MTB riders/racers continually denounce those "doping roadies", yet people (who race, it seems) are contemplating it, openly, on a public forum.
That is so frickin pathetic. Just another reason masters racing is so rife with dopers; OG's just doping because they are idiots without any moral compass on sportsmanship.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 11:31 AM
  #466  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
If a person cheats or just breaks the rules why does it matter to others?
Originally Posted by Ygduf
Because people who can't value context and see only black and white aren't typically normal, healthy adults?
Thumbs up on that response.

Cheating literally means that you are breaking laws to swindle others out of what they deserve.

Cheating in sport, by definition, is an action taken on others. The entire basis is to defraud and take something from other people.

If all dopers never competed, never used strava, never did group training rides, or otherwise compete with others than yeah, no harm except lying to themselves. But then, they wouldn't dope would they? They dope to cheat. They dope to gain dishonest and unfair advantage.
That is cheating.

It also hurts the fans and the grassroots. It perverts sports. It's no longer about competition and that's really a death to sports, which is another reason why doping is illegal. It's damaging in a lot of ways.
People emulate their heros, even when their heros are pathetic sociopaths. Their success, even if it is fake and unearned, makes it a valid route for those lacking moral fiber.

All of that kills the sport. Cheaters don't care, nor think beyond themselves. But that defines cheating too...
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 01:17 PM
  #467  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,473

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
There is no difference to those competing if their competition cheated or just broke the rules.
Example: Competitor flats. A wheel is given by another team and competitor chases back on and wins. Net result is the same.

I can't really comment as to the fans and grass roots being hurt as I have not figured out if cheating helps or hurts. If we took out the exciting tours and the 20 or so riders that made it so - by cheating, would the sport be better or not now? I see cheating in every sport and I see the media really get into talking about it, and more people watching.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 01:23 PM
  #468  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
There is no difference to those competing if their competition cheated or just broke the rules.
Example: Competitor flats. A wheel is given by another team and competitor chases back on and wins. Net result is the same.

I can't really comment as to the fans and grass roots being hurt as I have not figured out if cheating helps or hurts. If we took out the exciting tours and the 20 or so riders that made it so - by cheating, would the sport be better or not now? I see cheating in every sport and I see the media really get into talking about it, and more people watching.
Isn't justification a slippery slope? (rhetorical question)
I just quoted you because it's so frickin sad.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 01:34 PM
  #469  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,473

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
Yes it is sad. But it is also true. Are you disagreeing that what I said is true?

We/I/my kid is affected way more by un-enforced and overlooked rules, or rules broken by officials, than drugs.

My point is the focus should not be on cheating/intent, rather just enforcing rule or removing rules those that cannot be enforce.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 01:47 PM
  #470  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
[responding to a deleted message]

No need to get personal. Doge's point of view is often, shall we say, unorthodox, but I don't think he is saying what you think he is saying.

The prior discussion was about whether somebody who breaks the rules "by accident" (as Bobby Lea claims) should be treated differently from somebody who breaks the rules "on purpose." I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe Doge is saying that the focus of the rules should not be on whether the cheating was intentional or accidental, but instead on enforcing the rules consistently. If you get caught using a banned substance, or banned equipment, or breaking any rule, the outcome should be the same regardless of whether you meant to do it or not.

Last edited by globecanvas; 12-23-15 at 01:59 PM.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 01:54 PM
  #471  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
I didn't even mean that as a troll comment but it got deleted anyway. I have a kid and teaching them right and wrong is what I meant. That is sad if someone is teaching them cheating is ok.

Maybe you have a better idea of what he's saying but what I quoted, that's what I'm going by.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 02:32 PM
  #472  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,473

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
Cheating is not OK. @globecanvas articulated my point well.
Cheating is about character and morals. Bike racing is not. There are rules. Win following the rules. If you win... Beat my kid... Not following the rules, your intent does not change much. As a friend, person, I care about your character. As a competitor, I care the rules were followed.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 02:35 PM
  #473  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,473

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
My quote should have been whether or not the rules are broken intentionally (cheating) or by mistake I don't think it should matter.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 02:39 PM
  #474  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
Cheating is not OK. @globecanvas articulated my point well.
Cheating is about character and morals. Bike racing is not. There are rules. Win following the rules. If you win... Beat my kid... Not following the rules, your intent does not change much. As a friend, person, I care about your character. As a competitor, I care the rules were followed.
I don't know if you're just playing semantics but no, I don't find what you said is true nor do I agree with it.


cruiserhead is offline  
Old 12-23-15, 03:11 PM
  #475  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,473

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
Two questions then as it applied to bike racing.
How should officials determine intent of a rule breaker?
How should officials punish intentional vs accidental rule breaking?

Expanding on my example above. In a race a rider has a seat post problem and gets a 5mm allen key to fix it from another rider on an opposing team. A 2nd rider has a mechanical and having seen what happened with the first rider, knowingly cheats, and does the same.

Should the officials treat the two riders differently?

Last edited by Doge; 12-23-15 at 03:15 PM.
Doge is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.