Ygduf

Because people who can't value context and see only black and white aren't typically normal, healthy adults?

Doge

Cycling is a black and white sport where the winner may be determined by split seconds or split inches. So applying the rules about drugs, equipment or anything else in the sport the same way seems natural. I get that from a marketing/general public point of view there is a different face to present and context matters. I should have clarified my comment was primarily with regards to the rules/enforcement of the rules for cycling. For other sports - it depends.

tetonrider

i was amused by this take on the announcement:
"Perky Lea"

canuckbelle

Noob question. What if one has, e.g., surgery and a doctor gives a small prescription for percocet (like 5 days worth and no refills). Does one get a TUE for that even if it's in the winter and one isn't racing?

How does this stuff work in the off season? I assume during racing season one has to get a TUE...

ETA: My research suggests that a TUE is only required, for oxycodone, "in-competition": https://www.usada.org/substances/proh...athlete-guide/

gsteinb

doesn't matter if it's a small or large amount. if it's approved for out of competition you can use it while you're not racing. I'd have presumed that to mean something than it seems to in this case. Namely, you no longer being intoxicated from it. This seems to point it being detectable. Nonetheless, the off season is obviously out of competition.

shovelhd

I think it would be tough to get a TUE for Percocet. It should be.

If you have surgery or a serious injury and take banned drugs during the racing season, that's fine. If you take them after you are healed, that's not fine. Using Percocet to manage pain during the racing season and to assist in sleeping? Sorry, that's not fine. The nice guy and no advantage arguments don't fly with me. It's cheating.

Ygduf

every post in this thread points to it not being black/white and people caring about context. think what you like. even the allowed out of competition but banned in competition is far from black/white given that it metabolizes differently in different people so your black/white rule means different things for different people. dude A can take it 2 days before a race but dude B is guilty of cheating if he takes it 2 days from a race. That's super clear.

(2 days = imaginary, I'm not googling half life of oxy or whatever)

Doge

I agree determining if it is cheating requires context. But rule enforcement should be on the black and white, not based on intent/cheating.

With "legal out"/"banned in" drugs - you need to be clean the day of competition. The rider needs to make sure that they comply. If the rider accidentally has an advantage doing something against the rules I don't call that cheating - but they should be sanctioned the same - IMO, because others were not allowed that advantage.

canuckbelle

Yeah, I'm talking about me and my wisdom teeth surgery, not the dude in the post.

topflightpro

You'll be fine. Getting a TUE is not fast or easy. In fact, if you applied and if you were approved, by the time you get it, you'll probably already be through your five days and it will be completely out of your system.

gsteinb

I only got hit with a $5 surcharge

Duke of Kent

Simple solution:

Don't fill the prescription.

The pain is hardly noteworthy and the feeling of being drugged is not something I enjoy, personally.

Duke of Kent

I woke up to this, over on MTBR:

Anyone juicing?- Mtbr.com

This **** kills me. MTB riders/racers continually denounce those "doping roadies", yet people (who race, it seems) are contemplating it, openly, on a public forum.

gsteinb

pain is personal and dependent upon circumstances.

I had four impacted wisdom teeth out at once, and had complications from infected sockets for a few months. It wasn't easy, and the pain was indeed noteworthy.

I also wouldn't hesitate to percocet with broken ribs, as the healing power of getting sleep (about the most painful thing you can do with broken ribs, with the exception of sneezing) far outweighs the advantages of toughing it out.

On testosterone: The idea that guys have "that everyone is on it" or that "everyone fast is juicing <sic>" is typically a construct of their own inabilities as racers. Yes folks take PEDs. No, not every fast guy out there is a science fair project. Not everyone faster than the guy who who declares "everyone is doping," is doping.

cruiserhead

That is so frickin pathetic. Just another reason masters racing is so rife with dopers; OG's just doping because they are idiots without any moral compass on sportsmanship.

cruiserhead

Thumbs up on that response.

Cheating literally means that you are breaking laws to swindle others out of what they deserve.

Cheating in sport, by definition, is an action taken on others. The entire basis is to defraud and take something from other people.

If all dopers never competed, never used strava, never did group training rides, or otherwise compete with others than yeah, no harm except lying to themselves. But then, they wouldn't dope would they? They dope to cheat. They dope to gain dishonest and unfair advantage.
That is cheating.

It also hurts the fans and the grassroots. It perverts sports. It's no longer about competition and that's really a death to sports, which is another reason why doping is illegal. It's damaging in a lot of ways.
People emulate their heros, even when their heros are pathetic sociopaths. Their success, even if it is fake and unearned, makes it a valid route for those lacking moral fiber.

All of that kills the sport. Cheaters don't care, nor think beyond themselves. But that defines cheating too...

Doge

There is no difference to those competing if their competition cheated or just broke the rules.
Example: Competitor flats. A wheel is given by another team and competitor chases back on and wins. Net result is the same.

I can't really comment as to the fans and grass roots being hurt as I have not figured out if cheating helps or hurts. If we took out the exciting tours and the 20 or so riders that made it so - by cheating, would the sport be better or not now? I see cheating in every sport and I see the media really get into talking about it, and more people watching.

cruiserhead

Isn't justification a slippery slope? (rhetorical question)
I just quoted you because it's so frickin sad.

Doge

Yes it is sad. But it is also true. Are you disagreeing that what I said is true?

We/I/my kid is affected way more by un-enforced and overlooked rules, or rules broken by officials, than drugs.

My point is the focus should not be on cheating/intent, rather just enforcing rule or removing rules those that cannot be enforce.

globecanvas

[responding to a deleted message]

No need to get personal. Doge's point of view is often, shall we say, unorthodox, but I don't think he is saying what you think he is saying.

The prior discussion was about whether somebody who breaks the rules "by accident" (as Bobby Lea claims) should be treated differently from somebody who breaks the rules "on purpose." I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe Doge is saying that the focus of the rules should not be on whether the cheating was intentional or accidental, but instead on enforcing the rules consistently. If you get caught using a banned substance, or banned equipment, or breaking any rule, the outcome should be the same regardless of whether you meant to do it or not.

cruiserhead

I didn't even mean that as a troll comment but it got deleted anyway. I have a kid and teaching them right and wrong is what I meant. That is sad if someone is teaching them cheating is ok.

Maybe you have a better idea of what he's saying but what I quoted, that's what I'm going by.

Doge

Cheating is not OK. [MENTION=185230]globecanvas[/MENTION] articulated my point well.
Cheating is about character and morals. Bike racing is not. There are rules. Win following the rules. If you win... Beat my kid... Not following the rules, your intent does not change much. As a friend, person, I care about your character. As a competitor, I care the rules were followed.

Doge

My quote should have been whether or not the rules are broken intentionally (cheating) or by mistake I don't think it should matter.

cruiserhead

I don't know if you're just playing semantics but no, I don't find what you said is true nor do I agree with it.

Doge

Two questions then as it applied to bike racing.
How should officials determine intent of a rule breaker?
How should officials punish intentional vs accidental rule breaking?

Expanding on my example above. In a race a rider has a seat post problem and gets a 5mm allen key to fix it from another rider on an opposing team. A 2nd rider has a mechanical and having seen what happened with the first rider, knowingly cheats, and does the same.

Should the officials treat the two riders differently?