It doesn't hurt anything. The front wheel isn't as likely to break spokes although disc hubs have changed the calculus somewhat. With the price that Rose is selling the Alpines for, the cost isn't an issue. I would argue that the thicker head does make for a slightly stiffer wheel especially with regards to side forces. I would also argue that, for a inexperienced builder, the extra strength could make up for some build and tension quality issues.

But, mostly, there's no harm in using them for both wheels. I order spokes from the same place and it's just one less thing to keep track of.

It'll cost more than twice as much to get those from Rose. $62.xx vs $28.86 from DansComp. Heavier, and expensive. Why build an expensive tank to haul feathers? Belt and suspenders and suspenders and a belt?

I was shopping for spokes last night and found a good deal on a SON 28 hub (€117) so I bought it. The installation sheet says.

Alpine III or regular double butted spokes?

Alpine's will work.

For a more adequate answer you have to look at the opposite end of the spoke. Rolling spoke threads increases the diameter slightly so, on a straight 14 gauge spoke, the largest diameter is the threads. A hub flange hole that's big enough to allow the rolled threads on a 14 ga spoke to pass will also allow a 13 ga elbow to just snugly fit.

I just finished building two wheels using Alpine III spokes, DT Swiss rims, and Shimano Deore hubs. 'cycommte' turned me on to Rose and I can only endorse what he says about the Alpine spokes and Rose's customer service was great. 'commute' saved me enough $$ to have more brewskis last weekend.

Life is always better with sufficient libations and good wheels........ Oh,,, a good dog helps.

I used them with Ultegra 6800 hubs and HPlusSon TB14 rims, worked great. Got the spokes from Rose as well

OP, you may want to look at this book, I like it the most and u get updated version all the time
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

- Proper spoke for the application.
- Lightweight rims (sub 500gm) don't require anything beyond 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes.
- A 32 spoke wheel with sub 500gm rim built properly will reach end-of-life from rim failure, not spoke breakage. This is esp true with today's 130mm/135mm hubs with less dish than BITD 120mm 6-speed freewheel hubs.
- Using heavier 2.3mm butts at the bend instead of 2.0mm is to compensate for poor wheel building skills, not to add any actual advantage for properly designed and properly build wheels.
- DT 2.3/1.8/2.0 spokes don't offer any advantage over standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes.
- DT doesn't use 2.3/1.8/2.0 spokes on any of their premade wheels and none of them have more than 28 spokes (those are MTB wheelsets, road wheelsets are 24 spoke for disc, 20/16 for road)....
- The canard about double butted spokes relieving stress at the bend and adding to spoke life doesn't follow the simplest engineering principals known to successful 1st year engineering students....
- No one has ever demonstrated the "DB spokes make the wheel stronger" theory with computer simulations either....
- The reason why no one has demonstrated the theory with computer simulation it is because it's false....

So should I just use straight gauge spokes if I don't care about the weight?

No, it's outright wrong. The DB spokes do help with durability. Thinning the middle down does help relieve the elbows.

As for the additional benefit of even thicker elbows (i.e. 2.3-1.8.2.0 spokes) - some experienced forum members swear by those spokes - though I'm not sure there's much benefit compared to 2.0-1.8-2.0, but there's definitely no harm either.

Whatever you do, make sure the 2.3 spokes will make "the turn" when running the elbow through the flange. I have laced a couple Dura-Ace hubs that I am sure would NOT have accepted the large elbow. As you "turn" the elbow to draw it through the hole, it takes up more space than it's actual diameter because of the bend. If the flange is really thick (which is a good thing) it makes it even more difficult. I had to manhandle and really push and pull to get them through. The end result is a better build, but....

For accuracy's sake. They were 2mm spokes and the holes were 2.3mm. I'd measure, or look up the spec on the spoke hole before committing to the Alpine IIIs, just to be safe.

The spec sheet on the SON hub says Speichenlochdurchmesser: 2 mm

I'll wait to order the spokes until I get the hub so I can test the clearance with a regular double butted spoke.

Mr IGH,

[QUOTE]- The canard about double butted spokes relieving stress at the bend and adding to spoke life doesn't follow the simplest engineering principals known to successful 1st year engineering students....
- No one has ever demonstrated the "DB spokes make the wheel stronger" theory with computer simulations either....
- The reason why no one has demonstrated the theory with computer simulation it is because it's false..../QUOTE]

You make some good points. But it is classified as 'point loading' vs 'displacement loading'. The contact radius of the 2.3 elbow in the hub 2.6 hole will displace or distribute the load better than a 2.0 elbow radius bend in the same 2.6 hub hole during the torsional loads placed on a wheel assembly.

It has nothing to do with the 'pull' strength of the spoke. You are so correct if I understood you.

I'd rather walk across a frozen pond in my size EEE 14's than in my wife's stiletto high heals..... Hum,,, interesting, gotta think about what color dress to wear...... just kidding.

Bottom line I think is even if it is 'false' security I'd rather have my large posterior on double butted 2.3's in 36h's. Skin is expensive to fix, but if I was in the Tour de France heck yes I'd use the racing type spokes. Oh, I'd also loose a few tons.....

Just trying to lighten things up and get a grin or two.....

I don't think it makes much difference for a guy like me. I got a new touring bike a few years ago that I use for randonneuring. It came with straight gauge spokes, and I've probably got close to ten thousand miles on those wheels. On the other hand the price difference is pretty small in the grand scheme of things so I'll probably just get the alpine III's for the new wheels if they'll work.

All things being equal, with a properly built wheel, the durability goes along the lines:

straight pull - double butted - "triple" butted (Alpine III).

Latter being more durable than the formal. Greatest difference (durability) gained going from SP to DB (DB to TB not as much IMO).

That is the book I am reading. It is very detailed.

Musson's book is one I always recommend, but along with Jobst Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel".

Musson's is simpler, good as an on-hand manual when building wheels, while Brandt's book explains exactly why everything is done the way it is - better than Musson. I have both and would always suggest reading them both. First Brandt's, then Musson's.

Link to an Amazon search:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref...keywords=Jobst Brandt The Bicycle Wheel&index=aps&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=xm2&linkId=a7f41e15533c9e778d745d42002f80e3

100% agree, Brandt's is very detailed.
I also use this DVD, Master Wheel Building ? I ? Bill Mould Wheels - I like Bill a lot!

Your math is off. 32 silver Alpine spokes from Rose are $18 plus some shipping or $36 plus shipping for 72 spokes. While it is technically more expensive, it's not nearly as expensive as you make it out to be.

Nor are the spokes that much "heavier". As the Wheel Fanatyk article pointed out, there is a 7 gram difference per wheel between double butted and triple butted spokes but a 30 to 50% increase in wheel strength. I'm not sure what danmyersmn's application is but a triple butted spoke won't hurt performance and will certainly increase durability.

You seem to be opposed to using DT Alpines (or other triple butted spokes) just "because". I suggest them because they add a benefit over double butted spokes for heavy riders. Lighter riders can benefit from them as well. An argument could be made that they would be more forgiving for a new wheel builder as well. The greater strength could make up for any mistakes made in wheel tension.

Yep. And in many cases, the proper spoke for the application is a triple butted one.

The rim has almost zero to do with the strength of the wheel.

It is relatively easy to swap out a worn out or damaged rim...depending on the severity of the damage...and continue using a wheel. The spokes can out last many rims. Generally, that doesn't happen because the ERD of rims is far from standard so finding a rim with the same ERD is close to impossible. It can be done, and I have done it, but doing so requires lots of research.

The 2.3mm spokes aren't used to compensate for poor wheel building skills...although they can offer some help in that area. They compensate for heavier load and demands for strength when it comes to wheel usage. Go read the Wheel Fanatyk article.

Yes. Yes, they do. Some people just can see that they do.

Mores the pity. But DT is in the business of selling wheels. Why build something that is stronger and lasts longer if you don't have to. On the other hand, they could maybe sell more wheels if they made lighter wheels with lighter rims and (very slightly) heavier, stronger spokes.

Jobst Brandt, an engineer by training and profession would disagree. From "The Bicycle Wheel":

I think I'll take his advice over yours.

So says you. The rest of us will probably continue to follow the delusions of a "real" engineer. Of course some of us also have real world experience with double butted and triple butted spokes that demonstrates that your ideas that single butted spokes are stronger are equally false.

It's probably academic for a lot of us. I haven't broken a spoke yet in 27,000 miles of riding, and that's with anything from 2.0mm straight-gauge spokes to 1.8/1.6/1.8 spokes on my newest wheelset. Spoke metallurgy is pretty good these days.

Mavic has been making the Open Pro for almost 20 years, with the Reflex Clincher sharing its ERD before that.

Velocity has been making many of the same rims (Deep V, Fusion, Aerohead) for a very long time.

You can even keep a spare or two on-hand for when the inevitable happens.

Jobst Brandt had 300,000+ miles on the spokes in his main set of wheels (1.8/1.6/1.8 IIRC), was not a small guy, and was infamous for departing from paved roads.

Did you read my posts?

I oppose them for reasons. And I stated those reasons clearly. They are unnecessary overkill for the OP's needs on this build. For an average weight rider, the rims will wear out before double butted spokes will start breaking.

You said there is "No harm." I am simply pointing out that there is harm. A slight weight penalty and a significant cost penalty. If OP had a box full of spokes already handy in the garage, I'd say "sure use them". But since he has to buy them, pay extra for nipples, and the freight, and use a generic length, I thought that pointing out an over $30.00 savings and getting custom lengths would be a worthy post.

What's wrong with my math?

64 spokes at .45 = 28.80
2 boxes of nipples at 2.00 = 4.00
Freight is 19.86
-----------------------------------
Total = 52.66
-----------------------------------
Conversion to USD at 1.16 = $61.09


The difference is enough for OP to build TWO sets of wheels using double butted Sapims, or buy tubes and rim tape for this set.

Your shipping estimate is a little high [MENTION=362748]SquidPuppet[/MENTION]. I have a cart full of spokes and lights at Rose and it shows shipping is €16,38. I'm also ordering German lights which I was going to get anyway, so if you take the shipping out, the difference between double butted and triple butted spokes is only about two or three dollars a wheel. I figure why not go for the good spokes?

That's what it shows me. But lets use your number...

19.86 - 16.38 = 3.48 x 1.16 = $4.03

$61.03 - $4.03 = $57.00

Is saving over $27.00 insignificant to you? That's two tubes, two rim strips, and a spare tube, at least. Or depending on the build, a seat post, or stem, etc.

You can't really "Take the shipping out" because you are actually paying it.

I'm not against triple butted spokes. They make good sense where their benefit is of use. But for my needs, and the OPs current build needs the benefits are moot, and the cons are real.