So, first of all, I completely agree that triple-butted spokes are overkill for my uses, but I can use whatever accounting tricks it takes for me to rationalize buying bike parts I don’t really need.

Seriously though, most of the difference really does come down to how you account for the shipping.

I’ll give you a real example. My basket at Rose right now has $198 worth of stuff, $89 dollars is for spokes and nipples for two wheelsets and $109 is for German lights that would cost around double if I bought them from US retailers. So even if you don’t buy the argument that I can allocate the entire shipping amount to those lights, which I was going to buy from a German retailer anyway, if I allocate the $19 shipping to the spokes as a percentage of the order, that’s $8.60 for the spokes and nipples. So a total including shipping of $97.60 for spokes and nipples for four wheels or $24.37 per wheel.

Compare that to 144 (36x4) double butted spokes from Dan’s at $57.60 + $11 shipping = $68.60 or $17.15 per wheel

So the real difference to me is $7.23 per wheel ($24.37-$17.15) on wheels that are going to cost me in the range of $3-400 per set. That’s nothing, and I still need to pay the shipping to get the German lights, so I still think the difference is closer to around $5 per wheel. I would say that falls into the range of rounding error, but everyone's case will be different.

I didn't say that it was impossible, just that it is often difficult to find rims with the same ERD. When a rim can last as long as 10+ years, you are often looking at many model changes and many differences over the intervening years.

Suppliers often change the available rims as well. QBP, for example, may carry Velocity Aeroheads one year and only A23s the next.

Freight is only $13 for the shipment. Nipples are something that you can either order from Rose...which I'll agree isn't cost effective...or you can get from your local LBS or there are other options which are superior to regular brass spokes. Total for spokes and freight is $46. The savings is only $12.

1. incorrect. FACT, freight is more than 13 Euros flat. Plus the exchange rate bumps the freight up to over $16.00
2. The nipples are actually the reasonable part buying via Rose. A little over 5 cents each.
3. He still has to buy nipples somewhere. You left that out of your "Math". Most LBS want at least a dime
4. Even if your $46.00 number was right (it isn't), 46 - 30 is 16, not twelve.

So yeah. OP can Shop at one place, (DansComp) save over $30.00, get same day shipment, speedy stateside delivery, get nipples included, and custom length spokes. Or he can do it your way. Buy unnecessarily robust spokes, waste, $20.00, then have to shop for nipples at another place. He'll spend at least six bucks there, plus another freight charge.

Why are you fabricating false numbers to support an illogical argument?

I weigh 165 lbs. Should I over spend and build my non-tandem bike cruising wheels with tandem hubs because "They build a stronger wheel"? Of course not. A pair of regular hubs will last my lifetime, and longer.

If over 36 spoke hubs and rims were more widely available, that's what I'd use for rear wheels on all the bikes except road bikes (and racing/competition use). 36 is good, but going over that, on a wheel that isn't loaded as a tandem, you can ride for a year with a broken spoke and have no problems. Add that the chance of braking a spoke on such a wheel, properly built, is very, very small.

I just got a shipment of spokes from Rose. Shipping was €13.17. At the current exchange rate that is $15.48. FACT: Close enough to €13 and not quite $16 shipping.

So $6.40 plus some tax is going to break the bank?

If you are going to accuse me of "making things up", don't do it yourself. 64 spokes from your source is $25.60. Shipping on purchases over $25 is $8 so the total comes to $33.60. Using whole number, $46-34 is $12.

$12 became $16 then became $20? And my math is fuzzy?

Right back at you. You keep bringing up how much "heavier" Alpines are over other spokes. Yes, they are heavier...by 7 g per wheel. I'm not sure many people would notice. They are also much more durable. Most people might not notice that aspect either but they would certainly notice fewer broken spokes.

Say what? Now we are talking about hubs? First, hubs, like rims, have little to nothing to do with wheel strength. All the strength of a wheel is in the spokes. That people can get by with the weak spokes they usually use is something of a miracle in my eyes.

So you weigh 165 lbs. How much does danmyersmn weigh? What does he what to use the wheels for? Since we've been in this pissing contest, I missed this post...sorry danmyersmn. He might want to use the wheels for touring. For that application Alpine III are an excellent choice. For other applications, they won't hurt anything.

And, because I didn't answer your question, I wouldn't worry too much about the rim, danmyersmn. I don't build with heavy rims for any application...touring, road or mountain bike. There is no need. Heavy rims are just heavy. They don't add much to wheel strength. The reason I suggested a different rim is for a shorter spoke.

As for all the above brouhaha, I'm sorry we got so far out into the weeds. For your front wheel, the double butted spokes would be perfectly adequate since you can't get the Alpines in 299mm (or 300mm) length. Front wheels are inherently stronger so you can get away with less spoke strength. I tend to build everything with the Alpines because of my weight and the way I ride. I find it to be cheap insurance.

However, for the rear wheel, and especially a possible touring wheel, the Alpines will pay for themselves. I have close to 5000 loaded touring miles on my Alpine spokes without spoke breakage and nearly 17,000 miles on the ones I used for commuting. The only reason that the commuting ones are ones I "used" to use is because the rims wore out and I rebuilt with a different rim.

More magic? Your whole number doesn't include the cost of nipples, or tax, or freight.

You can keep moving the shells if you want but 60ish minus 30ish is 30ish


Selective


It's called an analogy. The subject was unnecessary excess.

Except your wallet, unnecessarily.

cyccommute,

I'm with you. Hey,,, besides who would believe something said from someone that their nose grows with every post??? Remember Pinocchio.....?

Grin.........

Let me summarize the discussion:

1. Everybody agrees that 14/15/14 spokes will be adequate.
2. 13/15/14 spokes are indeed stronger at the bend but the additional strength is probably unnecessary. There's also a minuscule weight penalty.
3. The most hotly contested part is the discussion over shipping costs. OP says he doesn't care because he has already decided to buy some additional stuff from the UK supplier and doesn't think he will have to pay much if any extra shipping for the spokes.

Did I get it all right?

[MENTION=9509]Retro Grouch[/MENTION] drops the mic

Nope. You are confusing OP with Kingston.

OP mentioned early on that it was not for a tandem or heavy load. OP mentioned how cheap the Alpine spokes were. I showed OP where to get "good enough" spokes far cheaper, including nipples and far less freight charge. Saving him close-ish to $30.00. He thanked me and acknowledged that DansComp was a better deal. (see below)

Since then Cyco has continued to attempt to convince OP that Aplines are the way to go, because it's wise to use a HUMMER to go to the convenience store for a pack of gum. Cyco has also tried to convince me that 20 Euros are the same as 20 dollars and that nipples are free, or not needed, or that his calculator is malfunctioning.

Granted it doesn't include the cost of nipples. Add about $4 to the total. Still not $60. My estimate does include about $15 freight. It doesn't include tax because there isn't any tax on the shipment.

$50(ish) minus $35(ish) is $15.


As is yours.


We don't need an analogy to muddy the waters. As to whether or not the Alpines are necessary see post 18. danmyersmn might want to use the wheels for a touring frame. A double butted spoke and 32 spoke wheels wouldn't be a good choice for that application. He might be able to get away with it on a stronger wheel.

Stop making large rounding adjustments in your favor. Jeez.

Using YOUR number a Rose order is $53.xx and DansComp is $33.xx. Those are YOUR numbers.

Spokes .45 x 64 = 28.80
Nips = 4.00
Freight (your number) = 13.12

Total = 45.92

Today's exchange rate is 1.18 but I'll use yesterday's of 1.16

45.92 x 1.16 = $53.26
----------------------------------


You keep accusing me of turning 12 bucks into 16 and 16 into 20. I'm not. Using your numbers there is a $20.00 difference. When I put the order (for spokes AND nipples) into Rose it wants to charge me 19.86 Euros for freight, hence my original claim of the $30.00 difference.

So I'm also about to embark on my first wheel build, and I've already purchased my rims, spokes and hubs, so hopefully I can skip the part where we obsess about shipping costs (and dollar amounts smaller than what it costs to buy lunch in my neck of the woods)?

I'm thinking about getting Musson's book, and I like a lot of detailed instruction, but I'm wondering if it's almost overkill. I can get a little OCD about reading and following every single step, and I'd prefer to dedicate several hours to each wheel, not several weeks.

Would it be so crazy to simply use sites like Sheldon's, in conjunction with a few free videos and other sites like this one: Wheels ?

(FYI: I'm using DT Swiss R460 Rims, DT Competition Double Butted Spokes, Campagnolo Veloce/Mirage 8-Speed Hubs circa mid 1990's, Brass Nipples)

You'll be fine. Here's a .pdf version of Brandt's book "The Bicycle Wheel". It has easy to follow instructions with pictures.

You can do it from Sheldon't site with no problems. However:

Musson's book is quite short IMO. And nicely divided by chapters, so you can skip to what you need.
He gives good DIY tips for making the needed tools - very nice.
He explains the lacing and truing procedure a bit better, simpler than Sheldon.
Having it in paper at hand can be very handy.

Thanks for the advice, and I completely agree about how nice it is to have a paper copy at hand.

I'm also thinking of doing it without specialty tools (other than a spoke wrench), since several sources say it can be done, and I like the challenge. Plus, these aren't exactly high dollar components, and that was intentional as this will be as much about learning as it is about having a good set of wheels.


Oh man, you are killing me here... I'm so tempted to click, but I really believe in having writers get paid for their work. I'm gonna try to resist.

If it helps your conscience, the author is no longer alive...

Most specialty tools (except a good spoke wrench, holding niples at 4 corners) save time. You can do a perfectly good job without them. Except maybe tension meter, at least until you get a good feel of how tight to go on which rim and spoke count. Though for double walled alu rims, with 32 or more spokes (that are round, not bladed), you really can do without it.

Thanks again for the feedback, and the vote of confidence (so to speak). There is a bike shop nearby that rents out work spaces and tools for $10 an hour, and so I also thought that if I'm unsatisfied with the final product, I could always shoot over there and check/adjust things using their tools.


Actually, it does help a little bit. Not sure if royalties go to his family members, but...

I haven't been into the bowels of this thread, but I'd like to offer that I used Sheldon's instructions with great success for a dozen or so wheels. And good on 'ya for building a set of your own wheels. I really enjoy the build process and I continue to marvel when I'm out on the road and look down at my handiwork. I'm hopeful your experience is similar.

Dean

Nice input. It does feel nice to marvel over our accomplishments either large or small.

TRUST ME Dean..... You really do not want to go into the 'bowels' of this thread, in my opinion. We all know what bowels contain..... Poor 'damyersmn'.... he just asked a relatively simple question.

I waive my Pope like hand over him and say "Domino, Nabisco, Shredded Wheat".

Looking forward to it, and I think I'll feel pretty satisfied knowing I build my own.

Unfortunately I also think I'm going to feel slightly hurt/offended every time my work rolls over a pothole, which is every 30 seconds in NYC.

naah, i'm good.
Still here, still reading, still waiting on my rims to show up.