Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Decoding of Eddy Merckx frames

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Decoding of Eddy Merckx frames

Old 09-04-19, 11:44 PM
  #51  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
Corsa Extra 1989, repainted (rather in EMCycles) after 1992 - it was called "Rainbow" (definitely striking painting - rare). A beautiful bike...
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-05-19, 10:27 AM
  #52  
nesteel 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,994

Bikes: See the signature....

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked 80 Times in 55 Posts


The G character looked to have been overstruck with a "." perhaps.
__________________
My bikes: '81 Trek 957, '83 Trek 720, '85 Trek 500, '85 Trek 770, '81 Merckx, '85 Centurion Cinelli, '85 Raleigh Portage, '92 RB-2, '09 Bianchi
nesteel is offline  
Old 09-05-19, 11:35 AM
  #53  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
Not really, the "disturbance" area is too irregular, it's just G5. Frame no. 922 of the series "no letter" - 1980 (I have "no letter" no. 928 - with a bit of luck they built it the same day
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-05-19, 02:18 PM
  #54  
nesteel 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,994

Bikes: See the signature....

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked 80 Times in 55 Posts
Originally Posted by CyclesMakaron View Post
Not really, the "disturbance" area is too irregular, it's just G5. Frame no. 922 of the series "no letter" - 1980 (I have "no letter" no. 928 - with a bit of luck they built it the same day
I'm guessing 928 has the early goodies, like the BB shell and signature seatstay caps?
nesteel is offline  
Old 09-05-19, 10:59 PM
  #55  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
Yes, all "early identifiers"; SSC "signature" disappear ~E500-600, similarly "long lugs" and early BB shells (later these elements can be found only in single copies)
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-06-19, 11:59 AM
  #56  
Fivethumbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Here is my 62cm Stuttgart Corsa Extra. What can you tell about it?

Fivethumbs is offline  
Old 09-07-19, 09:57 AM
  #57  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
Nothing like a rich photo documentation Two remarks: this would be the oldest "Stuttgart" I know (1988); it would be, because the EM cutout should be in pink/fuchsia color, and it seems to be black - it might suggest a repainting. More photos could help.
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-07-19, 11:53 PM
  #58  
Fivethumbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by CyclesMakaron View Post
Nothing like a rich photo documentation Two remarks: this would be the oldest "Stuttgart" I know (1988); it would be, because the EM cutout should be in pink/fuchsia color, and it seems to be black - it might suggest a repainting. More photos could help.
Actually, being made in 1988 makes sense. The Stuttgart team started in 1989 so the frames were likely made in 1988 to be ready for the start of the season. I don't think its a repaint.. It's got chrome dropouts and chain stays with pin striping where the paint meets the chrome. I've chipped the paint in a few places and there is no other color underneath, The Corsa Extra sticker looks original too. Maybe the black lug cutout was a paint error?




Fivethumbs is offline  
Old 09-08-19, 01:47 AM
  #59  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
The colors, the painting scheme and all the stickers are flawless and look like EMC (could you add 1 more photo? seat stay back, where there is a transition of colors: green, blue, fuchsia, white; this is the most difficult motif in painting EMC 3color, the hardest to copy it). Facts: 1) For the 1989 season, EMC has prepared a few novelties: the Century model (R653) and team painting - Domex Weinmann, Stuttgart (or German Pro), La William and 7-Eleven. 2) the oldest known serial numbers of all these novelties (except Stuttgart) are in the range of A9xxx-B0xxx. 3) Team bikes are built in the autumn of the year preceding the season (and are the first to have new painting patterns on them) 4) Similarly: photographs for catalogues and catalogue printing take place in the autumn of the year preceding the season. 5) There are at least 3 EMC publications for the 1989 season: Gita for the US market, 4-page (German) and 4-page (English - modified) - there are very interesting differences in description between the latter. 6) Stuttgart's painting is particularly early - A81xx-85xx. 7) EMC stopped production in the summer of 1988 for at least 6 weeks. Conclusion or pure speculation: your frame could have been produced before the "summer break", "wait" 2-3 months (however unusual in size) and then be painted by Stuttgart (then described as German Pro by the publishers, only in the latest "English modified" appears the name Stuttgart), and since it was the beginning of the use of this scheme, filling in the cutout was painted with "just anything". (as long as it's contrasting) instead of the later catalog pink/fuchsia. This beautiful story is only probable... but it's pretty good




Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-08-19, 02:21 PM
  #60  
Fivethumbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Here are a couple more photos. Both lug cutouts at the bottom bracket are black. Upon closer inspection the black has an almost matte look. I wonder if the black was primer that the painter forgot to cover with fuchsia.


Fivethumbs is offline  
Old 09-08-19, 07:04 PM
  #61  
Millfield Velo
Member
 
Millfield Velo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Millfield NSW, Australia
Posts: 32

Bikes: 12(ish) Merckx (and counting), a museum full of neat things, and a Cannondale tandem. Oh, and a kickass Venzo Kerbmaster.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts


Interesting that the Columbus decal is SLX. My research has SPX used for frames over ~58 to retain stiffness?
Millfield Velo is offline  
Old 09-08-19, 11:05 PM
  #62  
Fivethumbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
According to an interview with Eddy Merckx in an old Winning magazine that I have, for large frames, he used a mixture of SLX and SPX tubing but still used the SLX sticker. I have a full SPX Bottecchia that is much stiffer than the Merckx. The Merckx also has a much lower bottom bracket, which I believe contributes to the flexibility.

Last edited by Fivethumbs; 09-08-19 at 11:23 PM.
Fivethumbs is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 12:19 AM
  #63  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
EMC used SPX (and earlier SP) already above 56, but usually left a lighter version (SLX and SL) for the seat tube (27.2 - of course). The information about the SLX sticker is invaluable, thank you. Now it's time for observations: strips (blue and fuchsia) on seat stays do not look like a factory paint EMC (you can see light reflections on color borders and uneven edges, the pattern is not applied symmetrically); EMC did not use black paint as a primer (matte or other). Conclusions: there are 2 options to choose from - it is a factory painting, but sometimes "corrected" ( thus the traces of the masking tape and black cutouts ) or it is completely repainted somewhere outside of EMC.
In my opinion much more speaks in favour of the version "improving factory painting". There is a chance to check the actual state of affairs: on the steering tube of the fork, EMC placed a piece of paper with the following information: serial number, size and... code of factory painting of frame (the codes can be found in the catalogues, unfortunately, mainly later). The code is usually 2-3 capital letters placed in the middle of the card (in my EM I found the FA code, i.e. the FAEMA painting pattern and the unusual Blue 83 code). If the card survived...
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 02:02 AM
  #64  
Fivethumbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I pulled the fork and took these photos. The letters look like "Go" or "Gp". German Pro perhaps?




Last edited by Fivethumbs; 09-09-19 at 03:21 AM.
Fivethumbs is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 06:10 AM
  #65  
Paul J 
Senior Member
 
Paul J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lancaster County PA
Posts: 891

Bikes: 1982 Eddy Merckx (Currently in a box awaiting a modern build), 1995 Eddy Merckx 10 sp Campy Centaur, Bushnell Tandem, Co-Motion Speedster

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 23 Posts



I have an early Merckx which I've had since the mid 80's. I bought the frame from a shop in Milwaukee. The bike went through two cross country moves with us with the second making a mess of the paint so I had Spectrum repaint it in 2002. I've always wondered what it's year of mfg was.
__________________
1982 Merckx (Currently in a Box awaiting a modern build), 1995 Merckx Campy Centaur 10, Co-Motion Speedster, Bushnell Tandem,

Paul J is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 06:13 AM
  #66  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
Beautifully preserved card - it can be a proof of the original painting (and only possible corrections). "Go" or "Co" - pure speculation... I have already reached "Green over" and "German overspray" In fact, we need for happiness the second frame from 1988 originally painted in Stuttgart "camo" with a preserved card or any EM with a card with an identical marking - I am afraid that only this will explain the situation. Another silly question: is EDDY MERCKX on brake bridge painted black or fuchsia?

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 06:18 AM
  #67  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
Elegant EM 1981 in the Molteni style - nice to see.
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 08:50 AM
  #68  
Paul J 
Senior Member
 
Paul J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lancaster County PA
Posts: 891

Bikes: 1982 Eddy Merckx (Currently in a box awaiting a modern build), 1995 Eddy Merckx 10 sp Campy Centaur, Bushnell Tandem, Co-Motion Speedster

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by CyclesMakaron View Post
Elegant EM 1981 in the Molteni style - nice to see.
Thanks CycleMakaron, how are you coming up with the 1981 dating? I've become so confused over the years. The bike originally was a deep red/burgundy with yellow decals. With the repaint I was shooting for early Molteni. When did EM start importing to the US? I saw him at the 1982 or 83 Chicago show I believe, he was signing posters which I have framed though the signature is almost faded away.
__________________
1982 Merckx (Currently in a Box awaiting a modern build), 1995 Merckx Campy Centaur 10, Co-Motion Speedster, Bushnell Tandem,

Paul J is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 10:26 AM
  #69  
Fivethumbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by CyclesMakaron View Post
Beautifully preserved card - it can be a proof of the original painting (and only possible corrections). "Go" or "Co" - pure speculation... I have already reached "Green over" and "German overspray" In fact, we need for happiness the second frame from 1988 originally painted in Stuttgart "camo" with a preserved card or any EM with a card with an identical marking - I am afraid that only this will explain the situation. Another silly question: is EDDY MERCKX on brake bridge painted black or fuchsia?

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
Merckx lettering on brake bridge painted black.
Fivethumbs is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 10:48 AM
  #70  
Fivethumbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by CyclesMakaron View Post
The code is usually 2-3 capital letters placed in the middle of the card (in my EM I found the FA code, i.e. the FAEMA painting pattern and the unusual Blue 83 code). If the card survived...
Do you know any other two-letter paint codes? If we could figure out the format it may give us insite. If "FA" is Faema, then the format could be the first two letters of the paint scheme or the first and last letter. If it's the latter, then German Pro would be "Go" and Domex would be "Dx" and so on.
Fivethumbs is offline  
Old 09-09-19, 11:33 PM
  #71  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
Dating EM early frames is a long story... but yours was probably produced in the summer of 1981. Red frame + yellow inscriptions... I have a painted frame like this (E6xx); if you had to paint it, Molteni was a nice choice, but.... The debut of EMC racing bikes in the United States was the Tour of America 1983 (team Winning - Eddy Merckx - Campagnolo), they used the bikes in this painting. The import started in 1980 (Ochsner Intl - Chicago, they only imported frames and it was an absolute exception; in the years 1980-1982 Merckx could buy only ready-made bicycles), then GITA joined (and soon took over the US representation).
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Likes For CyclesMakaron:
Old 09-10-19, 01:16 AM
  #72  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
It took some time, sorry, but finally I remembered where I saw the first EMC codes of the painting. "The frame Lives up to the Name" by EDDY MERCKX 1989 - corrected English version. Seven EMC frames were shown there and the code is given next to each frame. I don't have an original and the resolution of the photos is poor (my eyes too), but (from the left): ADR 88 = AP; Domex 89 = VOP; La William 89 = BJP; TeVe Blad 87 (really it's Lotto 89 ! - I think something went wrong with the 1989 contract) = XP; 7-Eleven 89 = SE; Hitachi = NP; Stuttgart 89 = QP. If anyone has access to this source, please correct it.
Observations: P is probably Pattern, only capital letters are used. Going back to our hero: "Go" or "Co" doesn't fit the style of the team designations; if we add black in places where fuchsia should be, it looks like the frame has been finished in a different painting than Stuttgart's (probably in one "civil" color). However, he did not have to leave the EMC factory in this painting - after a summer "sunbathing" in 1988 she could be painted there on Stuttgart (without changing the original piece of paper on the steering tube) and only then sold in this form. The second version was repainting the frame on the Stuttgart pattern outside the EMC factory in 89/90 - if so, the colors and stickers were carefully selected, but some minor mistakes were made (black instead of fuchsia and traces of using masking tape on seat stays). Both versions of the events are probable, I can not decide which one is true.
CyclesMakaron is offline  
Likes For CyclesMakaron:
Old 09-10-19, 08:41 PM
  #73  
Saw Crack
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 12 Posts
Love this thread. Unfortunately i have to post 10 quick messages before i can put up a photo.

My first EMB bottom bracket has:

Left------Right
8----------Z
X----------5736
P*

* I think it is stamped upside down. It looks like an upside down uppercase P rather than a lower case 'd'.
Saw Crack is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 08:43 PM
  #74  
Saw Crack
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 12 Posts
Still love this thread....

My second EMB bottom bracket has:

Left------Right
(.) ----------C
A----------1275
8TTB
Saw Crack is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 11:55 PM
  #75  
CyclesMakaron
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 107 Posts
P8X Z5736: P - EMC employee designation (always 'not correctly' in the 1980s - upside down or lying - to avoid confusion with "poorly" visible R, which meant Reynolds 531); 8 - frame size (48 or 58); X - Columbus SLX; Z5736 - serial number (production late 1985 or early 1986; model is Eddy Merckx Pro SLX (later renamed Corsa Extra).
A8TTB C1275: A8 - already known; TT - Columbus TSX; B - not sure, research is in progress C1275 - 1990; the model is Eddy Merckx Century.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
CyclesMakaron is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.