frpax

Personally, I think an Italian bike is made in Italy.
An Italian frame maker living in another country is, to me, still an Italian bike.

So, is a Pinarello carbon frame (or whomever) that is made in Taiwan, still an Italian bike? Opinions?

cyclotoine

We sell bikes at work that are "Canadian". Cervelo is a Canadian company, but production is all in Taiwan. People still think of it as a Canadian bike, but at that level or bicycle most people realize this.

The other day I help a women fix her derailed and jammed chain on the side of the road. She talked a lot and mentioned how she had been pleased to be able to buy a bike "made in Canada". I just smiled and nodded and thought... yep... devinci ... welded in Asia.. oh well...

Picchio Special

I was referring more to enforcement inside borders - i.e. the way lots of other products, especially agricultural products like wine, olive oil, cheese - are, via a DOC system. Something similar could be created for bikes. This would first require some kind of perceived threat to something with significant cultural value, i.e. the Italian bike building industry, or at least the subset of smaller builders, and the threat may never rise to that level for the reasons you cite. (I'm wondering what's been or what is being done within the Italian leather goods industry.)

bbattle

So a frame shop in Taiwan hires an Italian to make frames they then sell to an Italian company who puts Campagnolo and Cinelli parts all over it. The Italian company is being run by three Swiss brothers who raised monies to start the company from a Dutch venture capitalist who made his money investing in Brazilian coffee plantations. Most of the people in the Italian plant are from Morocco and Lebanon but if you call the plant, a nice lady with an Italian accent answers the phone. But she's actually from Portugal.

Is it an Italian bike?


Or a company in Alabama hires several illegal immigrants from Ireland to make frames. Are the frames American?

Or what about an Italian company that had frames built in the U.S. by a British frame builder? (wait, that did happen)

Picchio Special

Maybe, but it's not "Made in Italy."

ScottRyder 

I have two Mieles that I consider Italian but also like the fact that they proudly display the "Made in Canada" decal.

Scott

Ex Pres 

Face it, bikes are all Pangean now. That's the advantage C&Vers have. Our brazed frames were probably made in the country of origin. My Guerciotti is ITALIAN

I guess we'll need COOL (Country of Origin Labeling) for bikes, like we have it now for produce and meat

Road Fan

IMO, no, it isn't Italian. But it is a Pinarello.

I'm considering buying a used Rambouillet frame. It's made in Japan, so it's hard to say it's an American bike. But the reason I want it is that it's a Rivendell Rambouillet, not that it's American. I could buy a Columbia or Varsity on CL.

Road Fan

This is another slant on it: Who benefits from my purchase? Any American (or in your case) Canadian?

Road Fan

A perfect example of this in C&V history is Faliero Masi and his squadra. Is an early Masi, perhaps made by Mario Confente, an Italian bike? All methodologies and all materials except for shop supplies were the same as what he could use in Italy, and all of the knowledge that went into them and into their American workers (such as Brian Bayless) was Italian.

But we would never say a California Masi is Made in Italy. We might refer to it as an Italian bike base on style, design, materials, and heritage. More correct would prob be to call it Italian-style.

I do consider my Rancho San Marco Masi to be one of my sexy Italians.

trueno92

i know this sounds messed up, but from my researching, i have read multiple times that the LATE 80's Japanese-made Bianchi's are superior in quality and workmanship compared to their Italian-made counterparts.

but why are the Japanese ones worth less?
EDIT:
but why are the Japanese ones worth less? (in the generalized used bike market)

banjo_mole 

Yep. Children's books from pre 1985 won't be able to be sold anymore, it's quite the problem here.

Over-zealous sob's. The right idea in the wrong application. (See "C&V flops" for more. )

Picchio Special

The zeal of legislators to protect the "innocent" and win sainthood, or at least reelection, is often in inverse proportion to the real benefit of the legislation in question. Lots of laws sound really good and helpful until you think them through and do some cost-benefit analysis or examine the possible unintended consequences. But who wants to vote against healthy babies?

lotek 

I won't speak about Colnago, I know some of them are made in Taiwan. However to the best of
my knowledge all Tommasinis are made in Italy. True Iro isn't brazing them anymore but they still
carry the made in Italy tag and rightfully so.

Marty

Picchio Special

And the steel ones are pretty exquisite. Tommasini has long been one of the strong proponents of "Made in Italy" and the tradition behind it. I believe he's been very loyal to Campagnolo.

Dr.Deltron

If I thought that my Olmo or Colnago weren't made IN Italy, or my Gitanes weren't made IN France, or The Raleighs or Merlin weren't made IN England, or the C'dales and Lobster aren't USA made...



They would have a new home at the MRWMD!!!


p.s. Stan .. ask Hector for my number. You're the only C&Ver in the hood that I know of. Let's RIDE!

bbattle

My 1970-ish Raleigh Ltd-3 was made by Gazelle in the Netherlands. none of my bikes except my Orbea have a sticker on them stating where it was made.

That's all there is to it. Stop putting those "Made in..." stickers on the bikes and then people will just buy the one they like and ride it.

or, Put a "Made on Planet Earth by humans" sticker on them.

Picchio Special

I like the ones made in Italy.

Mike Mills

MRWMD = ?

An "Italian" bike made outside of Italy should be called "Italian-styled", "Italian-designed", "Italian-inspired", Italian-esque",... it should not be called Italian.

Then again, I've said all that already.

Picchio Special

But I still enjoy reading it.

bbattle

You could have two frames sitting next to each other; seemingly identical except one had a Made in Italy and the other had a made in Taiwan sticker.


A couple of years later and the cheap Italian paint is in trouble, the decals are peeling off and you can't afford to repaint because the frame cost twice as much as the other one.

You save up to go to Italy to visit the "small, one man shop" up in the hills behind a monastery and overlooking a vineyard. There you find Jin Chiu, aka Atonio Malierissimo, master frame builder. He got tired of making frames in that Taiwanese shop and moved to Italy, changed his name, and began selling authentic Italian frames.

No different than staying at an American motel, complete with flags, owned by somebody named Patel.

Oldpeddaller

HARDY FLY REELS ARE NOW MADE IN ASIA???? !!!!

Didn't know that and I'm shocked and saddened, though I shouldn't be too surprised, now Britain is bankrupt. As a schoolboy and keen fly fisherman I once visited the Hardy works in Alnwick and spent a couple of hours watching split cane rods being glued and fibreglass Jet Fly rods being whipped (late 1960's). Also saw the reel production bench in action - a bit like a clock factory, fascinating! Later in life I bought a rod & reel from the House of Hardy in London - a shop with a special high ceiling and space inside so you could wield the rod indoors before buying. If they are now knocking them out in Taiwan or similar I might just as well buy a Shakespeare or Okuma. I know Colnago and Benotto made frames in Mexico but somehow even that' seems a lot better than the Far East. Why is that?

Dr.Deltron

That was for Family Belly's benefit...

Monterey Regional Waste Management District.

Otherwise known by longtime locals as The DUMP!

Picchio Special

You're right, I should just have saved up to go to Italy in the first place.

Citoyen du Monde

This whole discussion is a matter of relativity. It basically comes down to at what point the "item" becomes an item.

I don't believe that anybody expects that a bike claimed to have been made in Italy must necessarily have tubing produced from scratch in Italy, nor that the flux be made in Italy, nor that the paint that is used to paint it be made in Italy. So the question is therefore at what point do components cease to be simply components and become part of a greater entity. My personal judgment is that you should claim the item as having been produced in the country where the object can be first be used, as is, for the intended purpose of the final object. By this, if a frame made in Taiwan simply goes on to be painted and fitted with other components, it should not be able to be claimed as made in Italy. The whole bike, on the shipping box, could be claimed as being made in Italy, but the frame should carry a made in Taiwan indication.

BTW, Ernesto Colnago has not built a frame in decades (if he ever did actually build one!) Irio Tommasini on the other hand is the real deal.