Dr.Deltron

That's an interesting tidbit ... any idea when he may have "passed the torch"?
My Colnago is and '80-'81.

retrofit

Uh oh, guess the MRWMD should expect a donation soon...just let me know when and I'll take that poseur Colnago to the dump for you, no charge.

PS. yeah, Mark we'll have to ride. BTW, were you riding a 'bent in the Good Old Days Parade? Thought I recognized the hair and the hat.

Stan

Kommisar89

Ok, I can believe the first part what about that "if he ever did actually build one!" comment? Is there some question about that? Do tell...

Picchio Special

Waaaay before '80-81. By '80-81, he may have been having trouble keeping track of who was actually building his frames. I have a '71, and I'd be surprised if Ernesto ever saw it. Maybe.
I'm betting that if Ernesto built frames, it was probably when he was supplying the Molteni team in the early-mid 60's, or maybe a bit prior. I'm betting he did build at least some, since he was a team mechanic getting his hands dirty on a daily basis. Lots of team mechanics built team bikes. I'll bet he "passed the torch" just as soon as ever he could.

(I'll bet Ugo built his last frame before lunch. Yesterday. Exaggeration, but not by very much.)

vjp

It doesn't matter to the Italians because they are buying made in Asia Giants and Scotts.

vjp

Picchio Special

And Treks and 'Dales:

https://italiancyclingjournal.blogspo...in-verona.html

Though with the advent and growth of L'Eroica, there does seem to have been a growth in appreciation of the indigenous bike-building tradition as well.

rufus

I know Tommasinis, especially the steel ones, are great frames. I've lusted for one for years, and one day I will pull the trigger on ebay for a real nice one. But like I said, Irio isn't the guy building them any more, and like was mentioned, I doubt Colnago has built a frame since at least before 1970. Doesn't make them bad bikes, and they are Italian bikes, but I wanted that hands-on mystique for my Italian bicycle.

And I think it's pretty safe to say that almost all carbon fiber frames, no matter the name on the tube, are sourced from Asia.

vjp

Tommasini are still built in the shop that is owned and operated by the Tommasini family so I don't see how more hands on they could be. I doubt Irio brazed all the frames out of their shop.

Not too many bikes built in small shops in Italy anymore.

vjp

Picchio Special

I don't think that's "safe to say" at all - in fact, I think it's quite an overstatement.

Picchio Special

I don't think the "mystique" depends upon the "master" wielding the torch. It depends upon the master imparting the skills and setting the standard (and overall design). The whole point, ATMO, is about a tradition that is handed on, from torch to torch. It's quite possible that Faliero Masi brazed very few, if any, bikes from the 60's on - but he set the standard and the bikes reflected his sense of what a top-quality racing bike should be. This, to me, is the salient point. If you want "I know who brazed my frame" Italian mystique, get a custom frame from Dario Pegoretti - and expect to pay accordingly. But many Itailan frame shops have for decades involved "other hands" on the bikes, just as many Renaissance painters signed paintings that met their standards and were produced by their workshops (but were not exclusive the product of their brushstrokes). It's about who's minding the shop, ATMO.

Kommisar89

I learned a lot when I lived in Europe (c. 1987 - 1989). As much as many of us in the "New World" venerate those in the "Old World", remember that to them, it's just everyday life. I can still remember the words of a young lady I dated when I lived in Germany, ""Ich bin Stolz Deutsch zu Sein!"? Nein! No way man, not me!" She was commenting on a popular German advertisement of the time, "I'm proud to be German!". She wasn't and she wanted to be American so bad she could have bled red, white, and blue. Some of that feeling has no doubt passed in the current politico/economic cliement but never-the-less, for an Italian, "Made in Italy" is passe, something that grandma and grandpa worried about. I've even heard that for the modern Italian youth, soccer and video games rank far ahead of cycling as popular activities. I would bet money that Shimano and Asian made frames outsell Campagnolo and anything made in Italy almost as much in Italy as they do anywhere else in the world. Almost.

longbeachgary

That's why I say that my Italian bike keeps calling me "Dude".
(1989 Masi Gran Criterium - San Marco, California)

RideTommasini

If they say they make it "by hand" - that should be 100% true - otherwise they are deceiving customers.

If they say they "build it" in Italy - then it should be built 100% in Italy, not made elsewhere and then "assembled" in Italy - that is not the same.

If they say that "they" make it - then that should be true and they should not outsource any of their production to be built outside of their factory.

It is sad that a lot of consumers think they are getting an Italian made frame, when in reality it is made in Asia (or elsewhere), shipped back to Italy and assembled and then re-distributed. If buying an authentic Italian made frame, made by a master builder - just do your homework before buying.

Bottom line is this - if you really want to know who the "true" Italian builders are or should I say - who is left - who still builds by hand - and who does NOT outsource any of their production... go to Italy and ask to tour their factories. Dealers, reps, distributors and even company employees can say what they want and advertise what they want - but when YOU see it with your own eyes - you will know what is true and what is not.

Picchio Special

"Quick, Irio, the apron, the apron!" (Just kidding.)

RideTommasini

It is true - Irio is not building the frames - however he is still designing all models and consults on all geometry. He is also very close friends with Signore Colnago, Signore DeRosa, etc. and our company is still owned and operated by the Tommasini family. Still 100% made by hand, in Italy - none of the production is outsourced. And although the daughters (Barbara & Roberta) now run the company, Irio and Anna are at the factory everyday and he even still does fittings for people upon request.

RideTommasini

Hilarious! no apron - but he will have coffee with you if ask nicely.

Picchio Special

And I believe Irio is also a judge at L'Eroica, or at least has been in the recent past.

(Though I'd have to say that Pegoretti is the "Ultimate in handcrafted Italian bicycles," ATMO.)

armchaircyclist

I read not too long ago about "Made in Italy" shoes that were 95% made in nearby Albania and then sent to Italy for a little touch up work and of course the "Made in Italy" label.
George

longbeachgary

https://www.zinio.com/browse/issues/i...kuId=385014692

There is a photo of the Tommasini Fire on the May cover of Road Bike Action and that bike is HOT. I thought there would be more of a review on the inside but it is a very small article on page 60.

Kommisar89

One thing I always find unusual is that so many people, when they talk about Italian bikes, immediately go to the great masters like Colnago, DeRosa, Masi, et al. I would venture to say that the vast majority of Italians even back in the classic period never had an opportunity to ride one of those. There must have been millions of bikes by Atala, Bianchi, Bottecchia, Frejus, Legnano, Olmo, Torpado, and probably many others that I'm forgetting. When I was growing up and riding in the 60's and 70's those are the bikes I though of when I thought Italian. At the time I doubt I had ever heard of Ernesto Colnago or Faliero Masi or their bikes.

Of course there is valid reason for that - the great masters were small scale semi-custom builders. They may have produced bikes for the best racers of the day but they weren't sponsoring major racing teams, doing much advertising and probably didn't have big distributors in the United States.

Anyway, it would be interesting to know where Dedacciai makes their modern high-end frames as they seem to supply much of the Italian market today.

michaeljames

theres no reason to get into a pissing contest about which bikes are or are not made in italy, and what quality level comes in these bikes. the real matter at hand is all companies should be accountable for what they claim and be honest. it dosent matter whether its toys, orange juice, olive oil or machinery. when you state a claim to your product, it should be 100% so and if its not. than your business is unaccountable to its quality, morals, and ethics. and we the consumer need to recognize those companies that go above and beyond this. we the consumers for many many years have not held companies accountable for there ethics and it does mean alot, I mean used to mean alot. these days people worry about the bottom line only, ethics are a thing of the past and all businesses can ignore theyre quality or honesty as second prioritys because WE all seem to believe these days "theyre a company theyre just trying to survive in the market likeeveryone else" so who do we blame it on when we get lied to or ripped off? the government or someone else but never our self. we need to watch what we buy, watch who we support and watch how honest they are with us the customer. whether you buy a bike, food product, toy etc
these days if you get burned theres not much anyone can do for you. considering you are the one holding the money. you hold the power and should do a bit of research into what your buying before hand.

RideTommasini

That is not the case with smaller boutique builders in Italy. Our carbon frames are made from "Italian" made carbon to our specifications and built by hand in our factory in Grosseto, Italy. You are welcome to visit the factory anytime to verify that and get a tour. Plus our business is still family owned and operated. I cannot comment on the other smaller builders in Italy but I am sure there are others who do not build with Asian made carbon. However, the large producers have a different kind of business model and most of their carbon frames are produced outside of Italy and if they claim to make a steel lugged frame - they do outsource that production. But like I said before, the best way to tell if a rumor or statement is true or not - is to go to the source and see for yourself.

It is quite funny how people think they now so much about a subject when they are very wrong. (I am not referring to you by the way) Last year at interbike I had a guy in our booth trying to tell me that our lugs and frames were made in asia and that he knew that for a fact. I told him that he was misinformed and that we build everything in our factory - we only send our frames out for corrosion dipping and chroming on the steel frames - but he was very adamant that he was correct and that the Tommasini family did not run our business anymore. That is until I introduced him to my cousin, Barbara Tommasini (Irio Tommasini's daughter) who was standing about 5 feet away from me, and pointed to above his head which had a banner with pictures of the factory and my uncle fitting a person. Then I invited him to visit our factory and have coffee with Irio - he has not shown up.

So - I understand that it can be very challenging to determine what is fact and fiction in our industry.

Ok - I'm done commenting and don't mean to sound preachy or anything of the sort, it is just hard to read some of the comments when I know they are not completely accurate. Thanks for reading.

RideTommasini

That was the May 2009 issue where it was on the cover - the review is in the June 2009 issue on pages 110-111

geekrunner

Interesting discussion here.

rufus

I did say "almost all". I mean, I know Trek makes most, if not all, of their carbon frames themselves. But the vast majority of carbon frames these days come out of the same few Asian production facilities, and are just badged with the name of the seller.