Does it matter if an Italian bike is not made in Italy?
#101
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...and I just paid cyclomondo for some "Made in Italy" decals...for a Cinelli.
I wonder if it will be harder to sell if I get some "Made in Burkina-Faso" decals for it?
Just joking.
I think with the "branding" phenomenon that's got a choke-hold on marketing, everything from undewear to whole countries, the "Made in...." stuff has just gotten darn near irrelevant.
No matter where it's made, if it stinks, it stinks, and word gets out.
As long as beer can be made and shipped to where I can get it, I'm fine. Same with the other stuff I want.
I wonder if it will be harder to sell if I get some "Made in Burkina-Faso" decals for it?
Just joking.
I think with the "branding" phenomenon that's got a choke-hold on marketing, everything from undewear to whole countries, the "Made in...." stuff has just gotten darn near irrelevant.
No matter where it's made, if it stinks, it stinks, and word gets out.
As long as beer can be made and shipped to where I can get it, I'm fine. Same with the other stuff I want.
#102
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...and I just paid cyclomondo for some "Made in Italy" decals...for a Cinelli.
I wonder if it will be harder to sell if I get some "Made in Burkina-Faso" decals for it?
Just joking.
I think with the "branding" phenomenon that's got a choke-hold on marketing, everything from undewear to whole countries, the "Made in...." stuff has just gotten darn near irrelevant.
No matter where it's made, if it stinks, it stinks, and word gets out.
As long as beer can be made and shipped to where I can get it, I'm fine. Same with the other stuff I want.
I wonder if it will be harder to sell if I get some "Made in Burkina-Faso" decals for it?
Just joking.
I think with the "branding" phenomenon that's got a choke-hold on marketing, everything from undewear to whole countries, the "Made in...." stuff has just gotten darn near irrelevant.
No matter where it's made, if it stinks, it stinks, and word gets out.
As long as beer can be made and shipped to where I can get it, I'm fine. Same with the other stuff I want.
Fat Chance, Yeti, Merlin, Seven, Independent, Atlantis, and Bontrager (old Race Lite stuff), Klein (pre-Trek) all were as as good, if not better, at frame building than any Italian framebuilder. In fact you can't even begin to compare the technical expertise required to master welding titanium and aluminum with just working with steel. Steel will completely mask an incompetent framebuilder, other more exotic frame materials won't.
The pure and simple truth is that there was a renaissance of frame building, and it happened here in the states, and most of it wasn't focusing on lighweight steel bikes.
The vintage lightweights that are Japanese that are equivalent or superior to the Italian stuff gets thrown in the dumpster while vintage Italian stuff commands a premium. Go figure.
The reality is that vanity and pretense dominate the cycling market, and always will. The fact is that we all know some complete tool of a cyclist who has some uberzoot bike and lives some weird fantasy lie in that he rides every group ride as if he's somehow Fausto Coppi. The reality being that it isn't about the bike and never has been, and never will be. Dominant cyclists are dominant regardless of their equipment.
At the end of the day the kit is for poseurs.
God I love the kit though...
I dream about Mavic 841 and 870 derailleurs lying there on the shelf, NOS.
#103
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The reality is that vanity and pretense dominate the cycling market, and always will. The fact is that we all know some complete tool of a cyclist who has some uberzoot bike and lives some weird fantasy lie in that he rides every group ride as if he's somehow Fausto Coppi. The reality being that it isn't about the bike and never has been, and never will be. Dominant cyclists are dominant regardless of their equipment.
At the end of the day the kit is for poseurs.
At the end of the day the kit is for poseurs.
#104
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It's a good thing for tinkerers and collectors that off-brand frames and components are unappreciated = cheap cuz most people want a Colnago or a Cinelli or a Pinarello with C-Record etc. I want it to stay this way.
#105
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If an American tool company contracts tools to be made in China are the tools American? I don't think so but I am just funny that way.
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Question - how many of you that say "it doesn't matter" own an Italian brand bike designed and built in Italy?
My guess would be that if you do have an Italian brand that was designed and built in Italy, that it does matter.
I like Italian designs and builds. Yes, I spent a lot of money to get mine. Because very few bikes are built in Italy today - those that are more likely built by hand. The quality is obvious.
Regarding US Masi - If il Signor Masi lost the rights to his name for the bike in the US then he obviously doesn't have any connection to it anymore. Most "Masi" bikes on the street today I wouldn't consider Italian - I don't even think of them as real Masi bikes. The story of Masi bikes in the US is so sordid. I think it's rotten what happened. Mass production isn't in keeping with the Masi tradition.
If it says "Made in Italy" I expect it to be designed and built in Italy. It pays to do the background research to avoid disappointment if you want the real Italian stallions.
My guess would be that if you do have an Italian brand that was designed and built in Italy, that it does matter.
I like Italian designs and builds. Yes, I spent a lot of money to get mine. Because very few bikes are built in Italy today - those that are more likely built by hand. The quality is obvious.
Regarding US Masi - If il Signor Masi lost the rights to his name for the bike in the US then he obviously doesn't have any connection to it anymore. Most "Masi" bikes on the street today I wouldn't consider Italian - I don't even think of them as real Masi bikes. The story of Masi bikes in the US is so sordid. I think it's rotten what happened. Mass production isn't in keeping with the Masi tradition.
If it says "Made in Italy" I expect it to be designed and built in Italy. It pays to do the background research to avoid disappointment if you want the real Italian stallions.
#107
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As long as there are still Italian families of frame builders in making bikes in Italy and selling them under Italian brands I do think it's relevant.
When the last Italian family stops building - then it won't be.
When the last Italian family stops building - then it won't be.
#108
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On the other hand, I don't think most of us have the time to extensively research every purchase. That's where some kind of "seal of approval" can be very helpful. A group of Italian builders committed to maintaining local, artisan traditions and methods could establish their own "guild" with specific criterion for membership. This could have rigorous criteria for inclusion that would at least guarantee a minimum standard, if/as enforced. It wouldn't obviate entirely the need for individual research, but it would narrow the field, as it were. If we all have to "caveat emptor" every freaking second of every purchasing day, we're not going to have time left to actually enjoy our purchases, ATMO. It works for other DOC products; maybe it could work for bicycles.
Edit: To say, I think we all recognize that the likelihood is a great deal more that something exploitative is going to be made in Taiwan rather than Italy, despite the fact the the opposite could theoretically occur - which is one factor arguing in favor of accurate labeling. Different locales/nations have differing labor standards - we all know this. In other words, of course it can be legislated, as long as the legislation is enforced.
Edit: To say, I think we all recognize that the likelihood is a great deal more that something exploitative is going to be made in Taiwan rather than Italy, despite the fact the the opposite could theoretically occur - which is one factor arguing in favor of accurate labeling. Different locales/nations have differing labor standards - we all know this. In other words, of course it can be legislated, as long as the legislation is enforced.
If we're talking about a vintage frame - well, who is going to go around to all the garage sales and second hand shops to put the decal on the bikes?
For C&V it's sort of a moot point. Do your research or get screwed. That applies to more than where the bike was made.
As for Taiwan made "Italian" bikes vs. Italian made Italian bikes - If made from the same materials, 99.9% guarantee that the Italian born and bred frame set will be more expensive than the Taiwanese.
#110
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Believe me - if you're considering buying a new artisan hand built Italian you'll do the research because an artisan hand built will run you easily $1000+ for just the frame (and maybe fork).
If we're talking about a vintage frame - well, who is going to go around to all the garage sales and second hand shops to put the decal on the bikes?
For C&V it's sort of a moot point. Do your research or get screwed. That applies to more than where the bike was made.
As for Taiwan made "Italian" bikes vs. Italian made Italian bikes - If made from the same materials, 99.9% guarantee that the Italian born and bred frame set will be more expensive than the Taiwanese.
If we're talking about a vintage frame - well, who is going to go around to all the garage sales and second hand shops to put the decal on the bikes?
For C&V it's sort of a moot point. Do your research or get screwed. That applies to more than where the bike was made.
As for Taiwan made "Italian" bikes vs. Italian made Italian bikes - If made from the same materials, 99.9% guarantee that the Italian born and bred frame set will be more expensive than the Taiwanese.
#111
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One thing I always find unusual is that so many people, when they talk about Italian bikes, immediately go to the great masters like Colnago, DeRosa, Masi, et al. I would venture to say that the vast majority of Italians even back in the classic period never had an opportunity to ride one of those. There must have been millions of bikes by Atala, Bianchi, Bottecchia, Frejus, Legnano, Olmo, Torpado, and probably many others that I'm forgetting. When I was growing up and riding in the 60's and 70's those are the bikes I though of when I thought Italian. At the time I doubt I had ever heard of Ernesto Colnago or Faliero Masi or their bikes.
Of course there is valid reason for that - the great masters were small scale semi-custom builders. They may have produced bikes for the best racers of the day but they weren't sponsoring major racing teams, doing much advertising and probably didn't have big distributors in the United States.
Of course there is valid reason for that - the great masters were small scale semi-custom builders. They may have produced bikes for the best racers of the day but they weren't sponsoring major racing teams, doing much advertising and probably didn't have big distributors in the United States.
What I know is Pietro Casati taught his son Gianni, Gianni taught sons Massimo and Luca, and brought daughter Manuela into the business as well. As far as I know Gianni is still working in the shop.
Most people have never heard of Casati, including those that might know other "great" Italian bikes. You can't find an advertisement for them in any magazine. Good luck in finding any branded jersey.
What you get instead is a stellar bicycle - superb attention to details - amazing geometry - and a serious head turner. People might not know a Casati bike but when you ride past them they do try to catch up and see what it is you're riding.
I real Italian.
#112
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Do me a favor. Don't jump into a nearly two-month-old thread and then pull a particular quote of mine from page one to comment on unless you've read all of the subsequent comments. (You'd see we're pretty much on the same page, for one thing.) Next, don't presume to tell me "what I'll do" - I know how to buy a frame. I'll "believe you" when I think you know what you're talking about, and as of this minute, I have know idea if you know squat, other than throwing a bunch of %^$#* at this thread. Well, that and having a pretty facile take on Masi USA. Maybe take a step back (and lose the condescending tone).
the "you" was a generalization - not you meaning Picchio Special
yeah, I don't know all there is to know about Masi, I keep forgetting he sold the brand name for one, but that's because the brand, especially the US one, really isn't on my radar
there wasn't an argument in my post by the way - I was just pointing out that when you run into a bike frame that is from one of the legendary frame building families it's going to cost you - and it will cost you more if the particular frame was made in Italy, even if they make other frames in Taiwan
and if you're at that level you've probably done the research because you're going to be dropping a few Gs - I've never met someone who hasn't done the extensive research that is buying at that price point
wait, yes I have, but you could have sold him the Brooklyn Bridge because he just liked "expensive things"
#113
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That's still the situation with Casati, thank you very much. Two dealers in the entire US that I know of. One on the west coast, the other on the east coast. I think they sponsored a Jamba Juice team a few years back but I don't think they are currently. There's very little info out there.
What I know is Pietro Casati taught his son Gianni, Gianni taught sons Massimo and Luca, and brought daughter Manuela into the business as well. As far as I know Gianni is still working in the shop.
Most people have never heard of Casati, including those that might know other "great" Italian bikes. You can't find an advertisement for them in any magazine. Good luck in finding any branded jersey.
What you get instead is a stellar bicycle - superb attention to details - amazing geometry - and a serious head turner. People might not know a Casati bike but when you ride past them they do try to catch up and see what it is you're riding.
I real Italian.
What I know is Pietro Casati taught his son Gianni, Gianni taught sons Massimo and Luca, and brought daughter Manuela into the business as well. As far as I know Gianni is still working in the shop.
Most people have never heard of Casati, including those that might know other "great" Italian bikes. You can't find an advertisement for them in any magazine. Good luck in finding any branded jersey.
What you get instead is a stellar bicycle - superb attention to details - amazing geometry - and a serious head turner. People might not know a Casati bike but when you ride past them they do try to catch up and see what it is you're riding.
I real Italian.
#114
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Your post just seemed a little "Johnny Come Lately" - especially since I backed a away a bit from the post you quoted in one of my subsequent posts. It's surprising how many people buy on hype/brand and don't do the research - and they often drop considerable coin on their purchases. I do, in fact, have an order in for a custom frame, but I went with a local builder for that one. The fact that the legendary frame building families can charge what they do is partly because of the work they did establishing the brand, not necessarily because the frames are any better (sometimes they is, sometimes they ain't). A lot of the "Grandpa built all the frames with his own two hands, then taught his son, then he taught the grandson" is marketing in any case. Many of those shops, even the small ones, had more than two hands routinely on the bikes. I like Alberto Masi's newer frames - but he's having to raise his game because the better US custom builders (and a few other builders like Pegoretti and folks like Samson and Nagasawa) have significantly raised the bar over most of what Faliero produced or could teach.
#115
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It matters to me. When I built my Pinarello I wanted something different. It's a low end frame with Veloce 9sp group, but it's all Italian and Made in Italy, except for rims, tires, tubes, pedals, bottle cage and computer. However, I'm thinking about some Campagnolo rims to replace my Mavics, and Vittoria tires and tubes - but these are made in Thailand now!
#117
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I have a BikesDirect Bottecchia with Columbus Zonal tubing and almost all Record components, with a few Vuelta parts. Everything about it speaks Italian except the Made in Taiwan sticker on the frame. Bottecchia, Columbus, Campagnolo, and Vuelta are all Italian companies, so is the bike Italian or not?
#118
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I have a BikesDirect Bottecchia with Columbus Zonal tubing and almost all Record components, with a few Vuelta parts. Everything about it speaks Italian except the Made in Taiwan sticker on the frame. Bottecchia, Columbus, Campagnolo, and Vuelta are all Italian companies, so is the bike Italian or not?
#120
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I'm 100% Italian genetically, but grew up here (US) and I don't speak a word of Italian. I consider myself Italian/American much the way one thinks of an African/American. Maybe you can apply the same consideration to your bike.
#121
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Faliero Masi leased the rights to the Masi name in the USA. And got royalties too.
Now, I have no idea as to how the rights got subordinately assigned and or sold later. As late as the 90's Masi was still getting some royalties from Torelli Imports.
Now, I have no idea as to how the rights got subordinately assigned and or sold later. As late as the 90's Masi was still getting some royalties from Torelli Imports.
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I'm kinda crushin' on those Italian gears!
#124
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Anybody who ever owned an Italian car would know the the answer to the original question.
Good image etc. but when it comes to build quality and maintenance.....
It's probably better made elsewhere.
Anywhere else.
Good image etc. but when it comes to build quality and maintenance.....
It's probably better made elsewhere.
Anywhere else.
#125
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This is a ridiculous statement. But then, I guess knowledge of the subject at hand is not officially a condition for posting. You just have to kind of hope people can self-edit.