repechage

As soon as the Masi America seat tube bands were made they started to appear on the Carlsbad bikes, later dropped after Carlsbad closed for the Italian marketing tie in.

Confente, a Italian with Italian passport, when making bikes under his own name in the states had Confente USA on the headtube transfer.

It can be as you wish.

Dawes-man

Absolutely, yes! Walk around Verona, home of Chesini, and you will see every style and price-range of Chesini. Likewise in Italy generally with Bottecchia.

Kommisar89

How true. It's like when I lived in Germany - everything wore a three pointed star. My Mercedes 230 had a 4-cylinder, roll-up windows...even manual steering. And I think everything from 600 sedans on down to the local garbage truck to maybe even farm tractors were produced by Daimler-Benz. You would never see that in the US where every Mercedes is a luxury model. An old German guy I met said he wanted an Oldsmobile because it would have A/C, automatic, P/S, power windows, the works and he could never afford a Mercedes with all that.

So here is a question...if a "German" car is made in Germany by a German company but everybody that worked on the assembly line that built it is Turkish is it still a German car?

Dawes-man

Indeed! Or is a Lamborghini a tractor? Katakura Silk are so called because they were made by a silk manufacturer. BSA means British Small Arm... they made guns.

I think it's true, though, that all the Taiwan-made Cinelli and Colnago etc. are the low-end models with the high end still made in Italy.

Mike Mills

Yes, it is.

Kommisar89

Well that was sort of a rhetorical question but how about this: what if we then took that factory that builds those German cars, dissembled it and sent it lock, stock, and barrel to Turkey and assembled it there exactly as it was in Germany and sent all of the same workers to Turkey with it to continue building the cars. Are we in the same situation as we are with bicycles? Sure the management of the comapny is still German and probably the engineers and designers are still back in Germany. But isn't that the same situation with bicycles? Or how about my Mazda B4000 pickup? It says Mazda on the emblem but it is a Ford Ranger under the skin and made in the US. Is it Japanese or American?

Kommisar89

Yes, one of the unfortunate things which I believe started back in the 80's is that the European bike companies ceeded the low-end and eventually the mid-range to the Asian companies. It used to be if you wanted an Italian bike (or French or British or whatever) but you weren't a rich guy or a sponsored racer you could still buy a European made bike that fit your price range. Today you can't.

I can't blame the companies though. In 2002 when I bought my Bianchi Veloce they made two similar steel frame models: the Veloce was made in Italy of Bianchi branded Dedacciai oem'd tubing and equipped with Campagnolo components, the Vigorelli was made in Taiwan of Reynolds 631 tubing and equipped with Shimano Ultegra - the Veloce was $1450, the Vigorlli $1400. I had to special order the Veloce in traditional celeste because the LBS only stocked the Vigorelli in Bianchi's modern paint schemes. Today they still make the Vigorelli but the steel Veloce is history. That tells me that the buying public didn't care about the origins of the bike and choose the Vigorelli.

Here's something I need to do...all of the modern Bianchis I've seen so far clearly have a "Made in Italy" or "Made in Taiwan" sticker on them. I'll have to stop buy the local Bianchi dealer and see what decal their mid-range carbon bikes carry.

Mike Mills

The car would then be "Made In Turkey".



The answer is obvious, you said it yourself, it is "Made In USA".

rufus

More likely that to continue making the Veloce in Italy, it would be so much more expensive than the Vigorelli, and would probably be priced out of its intended market. To build both of them, at roughly the same price, in Asia wouldn't make sense. One of them had to go.

Picchio Special

See, Mike can figure this out pretty easily. Where it gets squirrely is when you have major sub assemblies done overseas and finally assembly done in the purported "country of origin." This doesn't happen as much with bikes as with cars, AFAIK (the exception I can think of off hand is when Trek had rear triangles brazed overseas and shipped to the US to be attached to main triangles brazed here). With bikes, I think we could apply common sense 99% of the time and come up with what the "Made in ... " sticker should, in all honesty, say. Whether we should care is another matter and up to each of us to decide. And as has been pointed out, perhaps a bit more research should precede our major purchases.

Kommisar89

Yes but as an automobile it is unlikely to carry any "Made in" label. It would simply be considered a German car and a Japanese truck regardless of where it was made. Why do we think bikes are different?

Carbon Unit

OK PCAD,

Which wins when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

Picchio Special

Because cars are not hand crafted and, for the most part, never have been. Because "Made in Italy" carries real weight, whether hype or not. Because if Ferrari started building cars in Turkey, it would raise holy heck, label or not (in a way that a US-made Mazda does not). Because "Made in Italy" gives guys like Tommasini and Pegoretti (who have built a lot of bikes by hand and continue to produce handmade bikes), who are rooted in the "Made in Italy" tradition and continue to support it, a way to distinguish their products (alongside other products in which Italy excels).

randyjawa 

After owning, building and riding hundreds of different vintage road bicycles, it seems to me that it is the actual bicycle that is the final statement of any builder, be they Italian, French, Canadian or Robotic. I have seen crappy Italian bikes and wonderful ones, both bearing the Made in Italy documentation. Some of the Asian bicycles I have been lucky enough to get to know have been stunning, both in quality of construction and ride.

Fiori, Miele, Marinoni and Winthrop? Are any of these Italian made. Yep! The Miele was made Miele - in Canada. The Marinoni was made by Marinoni - in Canada. The Winthrop was made by who knows - in Italy. And the Fiori is pure Asian. If Ernest Colnogo came to Canada and built a road bicycle, what would it be - Italina or Canadian?

One or more of you realized that this is all marketing. However...

In my experience with lots of different bikes and after carefully comparing quality, it occurs to me that Italian high end bikes are the leaders of the pack. English, Asian and Canadian come in second and France has failed for the most part to impress me at all. That said, my early eighties Vitus 979 was a wonderful bicycle but very fragile.

In my mind it doesn't really matter where the bicycle was made but it is important to me how it was made and from what. Because only a crafted bicycle built from quality materials will offer a quality ride.

Picchio Special

I agree that it's (mostly) marketing. Does this mean, however, that it has no value? We tend to think that the way something is marketed is somehow outside the realm of Truth with a capital "T," or at least separate from it. Is this necessarily the case? Can marketing not be a way of representing something in a way that involves integrity, or is it merely gilding the dandilion? I'm curious, not least because I'm honestly not sure of the answer myself. I'm not sure that marketing has to be something we need to peel away like rind and toss aside to get at the inner core of "reality." Yet the fact that we do tend to use the term "marketing" in that way suggests it's at least the current norm.
This seems to point toward the question of "authenticity," which is a real hot potato. What does it mean for a product to be "authentic," and what does labeling have to do with indicating that something is "authentic?" I think when it comes down to it, I'm inclined to agree with those who say we have to do our research and make up our own minds. On the other hand, I'm reluctant to consign "Made in Italy" to the historical dustbin of terms. It still has a resonance I respond to with respect to certain goods - mostly handmade and/or agricultural. OTOH, I now order my olive oil from Olinda Ridge in California. I did my research, and I'm convinced it's the "real deal" (taste buds back that up).

longbeachgary

You're right, some Trek carbon frames are made in Taiwan. My wife's Madone 4.7 had a made in Taiwan sticker on it. So I think it's the 4.7 and below.

Mike Mills

I disagree and I really don't want to bridge over to an argument based upon automobiles, nonetheless, I will do it only this once. Let's take Volkswagen as an example. A beetle was not a beetle. There were German beetles, American beetles and at the end, there were Argentinian beetles. Knowing where your beetle was made was important for issues of reliability, etc.

It might be considered a Volkswagen. It might be considered a beetle. But an Argentine beetle with a "Made In USA" or "Made In Germany" label is a fraud.

Why do you persist in trying to defend an obviously incorrect argument? Have you made this mistake, yourself? Have you perpetrated this fraud and are trying to rationalize it or apologize? Hmm,...???

sunburst

This might be trivial (except to foodies!), but America's Test Kitchen recently taste-tested olive oils, and the best came from Spain - surprise, surprise. The Italians still had the best Balsamic Vinegar however.

And btw, my LBS told me Colnalgo rebrands/resells the same Giant frame as is on my OCR C1.

Mike Mills

I understand your arguments but you completely miss the point being made here. No one is impuning quality or "feel" or country of origin or anything else. This is not marketing. It is fact. It is a matter of law. Where was the bike made? Was the frame "Made In Italy" as the frame's label states? Or was it "Assembled in Mexico of parts made in Malaysia"?

I'll say it again, there's no argument of quality being made here. The labeling as to country of origin should be factual.


P.S. - Unless there are new arguments, I am done with this thread.

Picchio Special

Except that much of the olive oil marketed as extra virgin is made using industrial processes that undercut its "heart healthiness." Just the fact that the label reads "extra virgin" doesn't mean it hasn't been refined and had acidity levels manipulated, etc. That is probably true of most of the "supermarket" olive oils involved in the test. I'm sure there's no one nation that produces the "best" olive oil; there are fine small producers in each that preserve traditional methods that may yield superior results, as with wine. And bikes.

bbattle

Cars do have information telling the consumer where it was made and how many foreign parts are inside it. My "Japanese car" Honda Element was made in the USA using US made parts except for the transmission, which came from Japan. My "Japanese car" is thus more American than many so-called "American cars".

Here in Alabama, we've got a Hyundai, Mercedes, Honda assembly plants and several parts plants, including a Toyota engine plant here in town. VW is building a plant in nearby Chattanooga. The South is covered in automobile assembly plants.

In California, Toyota and GM have/had a joint plant, half the cars got Toyota tags, half got Chevrolet. The Corolla outsold the Nova even though it cost more and was the same car. Go figure.

I'm not in the least bothered by this because what I'm after is the Japanese engineering and attention to quality control; not who is shoving the dashboard into place or bolting the seats down. It's the same with bikes; a Taiwanese Trek is NOT the same as a Taiwanese Magna.

mickey85

So I can get a hand made bike built by a man from Taiwan, who is used to building bikes the Taiwan way, that was assembled in Italy, and that makes it Italian? If we go by that, it doesn't seem to matter then where the bikes are built...Personally, I don't care. I have a Taiwanese bike (Univega), an English bike (Raleigh), a French bike (Peugeot), and a couple (I'd guess) American three speeds. I'd love to get a Japanese A. Homer Hilsen, but that will have to wait a while...I'd also love to get a Taiwanese Masi Randonneur...

FZ1Tom

Perhaps (and I confess to tossing this stink bomb in the mix) its not so much a question of where a product is made but what CULTURE produced it? That is, a bicycle made by a group of Italians, whether in Italy or Canada, or a car made by a group of Japanese folks in Japan....or here in the USA for that matter. Come to think of it, haven't a lot of plants adopted Japanese management principles?

Someone said that craftmanship still means something in Italy, the obvious point being that other folks in other places perhaps do not, therefore making it a cultural debate as much as anything else.

Tom

banjo_mole 

mtnbke

A Masi was one of the best 'Italian' bikes you could get. They moved their operations to Carlsbad, CA. There was some weirdness for awhile with one son making Masis in Italy while Poppa and the clan were all in CA.

If the Italian master framebuilder is Italian, and he teaches his craft to a kid in California does that make the bike no longer Italian?

I think a Reynolds 631 Steel Masi made in California is more 'Italian' than a carbon Colnago or Olmo.