crhilton

Really? I find it difficult to drive when I'm tired, and being drunk gives me similar difficulties doing everything else. I suppose I've just assumed that driving drunk was pretty difficult. Isn't that why we're not supposed to do it?


So you're concerned that your hands and arms can't handle steadying and minorly directing the handlebars while squeezing the breaks? You should watch kids play video games. I really don't think this is too taxing for the appendages in question or our reflexes.

The beautiful thing about the human reflex system is the way it sort of abstracts things for you. After years of martial arts as a kid it really is amazing how your muscles go from the movements you're used to to a complex strike being a thoughtless operation. I imagine the same sort of thing happens in cycling. Your muscle memory probably knows a surprising amount about how to brake and steer. So doing both at the same time becomes not only possible but easy.


This isn't correct. You're contradicting a thousand years of martial arts and other related things which depend on, quite literally, learned reflexes. Driving is probably one as well, and so is the most basic act of balancing a bicycle.
I don't think speaking differently when you're angry has anything to do with reflexes. It probably has to do with the way the brain forms different centers of speech for different situations.

But the pizza tastes so yummy.


I still don't get this. I brake by squeezing the levers. I don't steer by pulling the handlebars or pushing the handlebars (at least not consciously). And I have never had a problem keeping the bike under control with maximum pressure on the brakes (maximum defined by as much as I can do without the bike and I exchanging positions of authority).



No, that's not how you shift your balance. Sit in a chair and hold up your hands high in the air. Then lean each way. Now hold your hands together in your lap. Lean each way.
If you used your hands (literally) to shift your balance on the bike you would steer in the opposite direction you leaned. Here's what happens:
1. You push with your right hand to shift your center of gravity to the left.
2. This happens, at the same time you turn the wheel to the left (your right hand moves forward because it's putting more force on the handlebars than the left).
3. This causes counter steer -- Your bike turns to the left then leans to the right abruptly and begins turning right.

This is the only way one can turn a motorcycle (according to wikipedia) because of the weight of the vehicle. But on a bicycle you can just lean (you do weigh 10 times as much as the bike which is on 1/2" to 2" tires).



No, they're fine. You're listening to dozens of cyclists telling you we feel we have maximum stopping power and control with them and would not prefer a pedal based alternative.

EricJ

When I was 12, a coaster brake was indispensable for leaving huge fishtail skids on the sidewalk with my JC Higgins balloon tired land barge. During the next 50+ years, I never found another use for one.

Eric

owenh

Ithink this thread is over
Simple message OP "your an idiot"
if you cant handle 2 things at once why are you riding a bike in the first place?
Some insight for you test have shown that car drivers wanting to brake harshly/quickly
put enourmous amounts of pressure on the steering wheel
WHY?? because they are pulling backwards yet the brake is at the foot
and really how anoying would a coaster brake be

makeinu

There's a reason why I argue. Do you know what it is? I'll give you a hint. You remember the chain tool thread. Well, I broke the chain with a hammer, a nail, and a pair of pliers, it was a smashing success and it's still going strong despite the pages of hecking from a throng of people with "a lot of riding experience".

So you see, the problem is that supposed experts with tons of experience are rarely right. If I didn't listen to them and ended up being wrong then I would stop making threads like this where I end up arguing with everybody, but the problem is that 9/10 I end up being right.

banerjek

Yeah, much better to make decisions unencumbered by the thought process and not let yourself be influenced with those with knowledge acquired through experience.

I didn't see the chain thread, so I don't know what kind it was. However, if it was one of those chains where the manufacturer says you need to use a new pin, don't you believe it -- the old ones last forever. The fact that your method worked once should be proof that those guys who fix chains in shops every day are morons for thinking you need tools. Now go back to riding against traffic so you can see everything as it approaches.....

Abneycat

It was a smashing success? You broke a pair of pliers, wasted time when you could've done it in 15 seconds, and could've compromised the integrity of your chain. I personally define that as "having done things the hard, inefficient, costly way", simply because you didn't feel like trying to do it properly.

Just because you can do it doesn't make it a good idea. But you've been told that dozens of times in that chain tool thread, so I don't expect you to start listening now..

banerjek

How the hell do you break a pair of pliers? I'd just love to see this guy work on a car or take on a plumbing project at home

blorg1

My own very limited experience (with hire bikes in Berlin) is that rear coaster brakes are a joke compared to a standard road front brake (which is itself a joke compared to a typical MTB brake.)

I have slammed into the back of a car and gone through the rear windshield due to inadaquate braking on a standard road bike... I check, adjust and replace now!

Severian

Yes, and the thread on chains turned Godwin in a damned hurry (which you started) and flamey (which you started) and then absurd (which you had a hand in starting). All around a wonderful rhetorical victory for all hands.

Note, not an ACTUAL victory. Because everyone ELSE is convinced you wasted your time. And you're convinced that everyone else is crazy because your way worked (ish). As mentioned; yes, you managed to separate the links in your chain and put it back together. BUT, you also managed to break your tools in the process. Net physical victory of 0.

And this thread isn't going much better (though, 5 pages in and we haven't yet Godwin'd). You've convinced yourself that EVERYONE is wrong except you. And this DESPITE THE FACT that you've had constructive criticism of your point of view and serious questions about how you operate a bicycle.

Wrap this up in a bow and mail it and your chain thread to David Gordon Wilson. And maybe you should read his book. You may find that actual science has something to say about everything you seem to think you know so much about.



And about your 9/10? If you were really right... well then the rest of us (myself included since I used a chain tool at least 3 times today) would be dropping our chains (and our customers chains) in the street on a regular basis.

DataJunkie

I have this saying,

Those that are truly intelligent understand how little they know. The ignorant think they know everything.

Unfortunately, it means that intelligent folks can also be ignorant leading to ????
Anyhow..... perhaps I need to rewrite my little saying.

Paul L.

Aw crap, I knew I shouldn't have taken those vaccines, and my wife could have avoided that whole ankle operation with a plate and 12 screws if she would have just come on home and smacked it back into shape with a hammer a few times and used a nail to pin it. Well, I am never trusting an expert again. Thank you very much, I'm going to save a fortune in medical insurance.

In all seriousness, occasionally people win the intellectual lottery and find something the experts missed but I seriously do not think this is one of those cases.

Now for a confession, I did use a vice grip to turn my bottom bracket tool today which maybe was a little ghetto and not the right tool for the job but I didn't have a crescent wrench big enough to grab it so call me a hypocrite if you must.

banerjek

This squares with my observations. In regular life, the smartest and most knowledgeable I know insist they know nothing. They're not being modest -- they really believe it. The dummies insist they know everything.

As for myself, I'm a self declared expert on everything. So according to my observations..... damn!

makeinu

Let it suffice to say that you have no idea what you're talking about. I know my expenses and my efforts and despite the advice to the contrary, I assure you that my method was a victory.

What amazes me is that, despite the fact that I was the only person knowing the full details of the situation and the only person to witness the entire process (and, therefore, I'm the only person qualified to make a determination as to whether or not it was a victory) you have somehow twisted things around in your mind to conclude that you, just some guy on the internet, somehow have a basis to challenge my determination.

I've read very little constructive criticism and the only questions are from those ignorant of the situation, who, once again choose to believe that they somehow have even the slightest clue as to how I operate a bicycle. Once again, I'm the only one here that knows anything about how I actually operate a bicycle. Therefore, I'm the only one in a position to question anything about it and anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously full of crap.

Speaking of actual science, you might want to try it sometime. It involves actually trying something and observing what happens as opposed to just reading it in some book, depending on common wisdom, or taking a poll of 15 supposed internet experts.

Actual science is what I do. I actually physically try things and, instead of just assuming that 15 supposed experts on the internet must be right, I actually observe what happens and use that to draw my conclusions.

I doubt most of you would even realize it if you were dropping your chains...at least not without reading it in some book or having some internet "expert" point it out to you first.

Well how occasionally is it? I'd bet that you have no idea because you're the kind of guy that most often doesn't bother to even consider the possibility that the experts are wrong.

Well, let me tell you, I'm the guy that questions the expert every time and I'm telling you the reality is that the experts miss things way more than occasionally. Why? Probably for the same reason that you don't catch it...because they're trusting what they heard from another "expert".

Don't believe me? Try it. Start questioning everything you hear and see for yourself. Then you won't be such a pain in my side. You'd be amazed at how much you can learn by just opening your eyes and observing.

JTGraphics

Well I'm done with this post but one last thing, I have you beat on the nail and hammer method by 40 years I did that when I was 9 or 10 once, bought a chain breaker a few years later so even at 12 years old I did learn their was a faster and better and easer way to get a chain apart. Maybe one day you'll also figure that out also. I'm done good luck with what ever.... since you don't seem need any help I won't bother with your questions anymore. Good Luck!

makeinu

There we go again. Folks spouting off about things they know nothing about. Go try using your bicycle chain breaker on a motorcycle chain, or a exercise bike chain, etc, etc. and then tell me how much better and easier it is.

Or here's an even better suggestion: Why not trust an eye witness when they tell you things aren't the way you think they should be instead of assuming that your vast experience and expertise trumps simple observation?

cyccommute 

Personally, I don't care if you use your feet for braking or if you use neolithic tools for taking your bike apart but your ideas on science are way off base. I happen to do science every day. My job is to solve problems in ways no one else has done before. However, I have to know how other people have approached a problem in the past or else I'm just repeating the same mistakes that they have made and I'm going no where in terms of science. You don't start at first principles on every problem or nothing would ever get solved. In science...at least the science I practice...you build on the work of others and you acknowledge the fact that others have gone before you. In other words, if someone says you should probably do it this way, you might want to listen to them. You can do it your own way but you are going to go down a whole bunch of blind alleys before you discover that the way the 'experts' said to do it is probably a pretty good idea.

You might try taking your own advice. Go try riding a bike in traffic (remember the original question?) with only a rear brake. If you survive long enough, you'll find your hypothesis doesn't hold. And try a chain tool on a chain. You can do it the hard way or do it the way some other clever monkey figured out how to do it.

makeinu

In an attempt to get this thead back on track:

It's not a question of whether or not it is too taxing for our reflexes. The demands of the situation dictate that. The question is, as the demands of the situation increase when do the reflexes become insufficient with the arrangement in question. Please note that the question is when, not if because the demands of the situation can always rise beyond the level where the reflexes will be sufficient.

I doubt it. People can't even manage to retain the reflex of holding their bowels in extreme emergency situations. I'd be very surprised to learn if operating the brakes of a bicycle could fair any better. It really doesn't matter what a thousand years of martial arts depends on. No matter whether you consider it "correct" or not, the facts don't seem to bear it out.

Although it may not be conscious, I find it very unlikely if you didn't steer by pulling or pushing the handlebars. There are two ways to steer a bike (depending on the conditions). One is to actually turn the handlebars and the other is to shift your weight (and since the hands are a weight bearing point, shifting your weight, subsequently involves pulling or pushing the handlebars).

In any case, it doesn't matter whether or not you have better control of the bike when braking or not, it's still better to control braking and steering as independently as possible because you never know what combination of the two the situation will require.

No, that's not how you "sit" on a bicycle. On a bicycle your weight is partially on your butt and partially on your hands.

Also, the reason why you don't steer in the opposite direction you lean when you use your hands to shift your balance on a bicycle is because you don't push perpendicular to the bars, but parallel to the bars and pushing parallel to the bars does not rotate the bars. Moreover, unlike steering by rotating the bars, pushing parallel to the bars to lean cannot be accomplished with just the palms of the hands because the only force holding your hand against the bar is the grip of your fingers. This is why just using a few fingers to grip the bars is not ideal (regardless of whether or not it is necessary...as so many have pointed out).

Well, that's just a feeling. I could also find you dozens of cyclists who would tell you they feel safer riding the wrong way against auto traffic, but that wouldn't make it any safer.

Severian

huh... why didn't I think of the argument from first principles? I mean I studied a good bunch of philosophy in college.

That's what really bugs me the most about this whole thing. The OP is trundling along on his merry way working out for himself (the way we all do) what is the best way to operate X (where, in context, X is something to do with a bicycle). And the rest of us despair because it appears that he's stuck on something we've moved beyond, for various reasons. It's like standing over someone trying to make a fire by whacking two stones together to make a spark.. And you've got a perfectly good lighter in your hand, and you're holding it out to him because you just KNOW that if he doesn't get that fire lit in a few minutes he'll be devoured by wolves. And he says "bah! I don't want to use that, I'm sure this will work!" And then it DOES work (Because it is bound to) and the wolves are kept at bay. And our little fire starter is sitting smugly next to his glowing fire with his rocks and says "See! I told you! Now, run along with your little fire box. I've got MY solution."

I just really hope he doesn't get devoured by wolves the NEXT time he tries to light a fire. Because, I don't like hearing about people getting devoured by wolves.

makeinu

Please, don't try to lecture me about science. Part of my job happens to be trying to separate real science from just "some of the things scientists do" and, between the two of us, you're the one whose ideas on science are way off base.

Actually I think you should try taking my advice because you obviously have failed to understand the issues at hand here. Spend some more time considering braking arrangements and chain tools and perhaps you'll better understand exactly what it is that other clever monkeys have and have not figured out.

Severian

No you!

No you!

No you!

No you!

No you!

Mr. Smith

Practice your stoppies and you'll master brake use.

Severian

oh and one more for good measure




this message brought to you by xkcd

makeinu

Just what we need, another analogy detailing the vivid pictures of your imagination in order to draw attention away from the actual reality of the situation, namely, that I've raised some serious questions about the appropriateness of hand operated brakes which have yet to be addressed.

Have fun in the land of wolves, stones, and lighters. Please call when you're ready to join the rest of us here on planet earth.

Severian

No, you are!

No, you are!

No, you are!



The more intelligent response is:

Yes, you raised a question about the appropriateness of hand brakes in certain situations. And you were unhappy with the response as it did not conform to your expected hypothesis. I'm sorry you're still unhappy.

Bdaisies

I know I probably shouldn't bother with this argument, but i thought i'd put my 2c worth anyway. I've honestly never given this a second thought. Using my hand brakes to stop, slow down, in whatever situation has always been as natural to me as ... erm.. riding a bike.