Some lock advice from a locksmith
05-12-09 | 10:50 PM
#226
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Gee only the fact that I was the person that filled the key orders for them. There were THREE boxes that contained the keys when I went to fill the orders for the barrel keys, one series of numbers was found in box A (for instance serial numbers that end with 0000-3333), one series of numbers were in box B (3334-6666), and the last series were in box C (6667-9999).
So a full serial of 123456667 and 2341566667 both took the same key, based on the last four numbers being 6667.
I don't care what you've lead yourself to believe and I don't care if you believe me, I'm telling you what I saw.
As someone said, you would THINK that they have thousands of key cuts....but it's not so. They thought they were being clever by hiding the information within a code. And, than they change the key cut for the various groups every so often, which does throw in some variety,
For instance, they might change the cut for a group every year, so a serial number that ends in 6667 for a lock that was manufactured in 2007, might have a different key cut than a serial number that ends in 6667 for a lock that was manufactured in 2008. But they only purchase huge quantities of limited key cuts.
They mass produce thousands of locks per year and ship them all over the world. Just by virtue of the fact that product is shipped far and wide, that thins the odds of someone actually stumbling upon two bike locks from the same year, that are in the same number sequence group even more.
Add the factors of a occasionally varying the key cuts, the fact that the product is widely dispersed, and that most people aren't going to start randomly trying other bike locks on the street with their key.....than WHO is going to notice.
If it hasn't been noticed by now, than obviously they're system works.
And the serial number information was just an example of how they match the key based on your serial number, not the exact system that they use.
Again, the standard key locks offer more variations in key cuts than the barrel cut keys.
And, I should mention though, some of the their higher end locks did have custom cut keys. But Kryptonite isn't going to burden themselves with the expense of specially cutting keys for mass produced locks.
So a full serial of 123456667 and 2341566667 both took the same key, based on the last four numbers being 6667.
I don't care what you've lead yourself to believe and I don't care if you believe me, I'm telling you what I saw.
As someone said, you would THINK that they have thousands of key cuts....but it's not so. They thought they were being clever by hiding the information within a code. And, than they change the key cut for the various groups every so often, which does throw in some variety,
For instance, they might change the cut for a group every year, so a serial number that ends in 6667 for a lock that was manufactured in 2007, might have a different key cut than a serial number that ends in 6667 for a lock that was manufactured in 2008. But they only purchase huge quantities of limited key cuts.
They mass produce thousands of locks per year and ship them all over the world. Just by virtue of the fact that product is shipped far and wide, that thins the odds of someone actually stumbling upon two bike locks from the same year, that are in the same number sequence group even more.
Add the factors of a occasionally varying the key cuts, the fact that the product is widely dispersed, and that most people aren't going to start randomly trying other bike locks on the street with their key.....than WHO is going to notice.
If it hasn't been noticed by now, than obviously they're system works.
And the serial number information was just an example of how they match the key based on your serial number, not the exact system that they use.
Again, the standard key locks offer more variations in key cuts than the barrel cut keys.
And, I should mention though, some of the their higher end locks did have custom cut keys. But Kryptonite isn't going to burden themselves with the expense of specially cutting keys for mass produced locks.
05-13-09 | 11:15 AM
#227
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05-14-09 | 05:36 AM
#228
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From: St Louis Park, MN
Bikes: 2009 Surly Long Haul Trucker & 2014 Brompton M6R
Regarding Kryptonite keying, I've bought locks from Wiggle in the UK and they have different information on the colored label tubing.
Such as:
"Sold Secure Gold"
"VdS Klasse A"
"VdS Klasse B+"
"Art 3115 (with 1-5 possible stars)
I know it's unlikely Kryptonite would honor a US claim for a UK lock, but is other country keying different than the US? Just curious, because I know there is still a master key that looks like a portable angle grinder.
Such as:
"Sold Secure Gold"
"VdS Klasse A"
"VdS Klasse B+"
"Art 3115 (with 1-5 possible stars)
I know it's unlikely Kryptonite would honor a US claim for a UK lock, but is other country keying different than the US? Just curious, because I know there is still a master key that looks like a portable angle grinder.
05-14-09 | 01:20 PM
#229
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Hello, Kryptonite here...well at least one of the Kryptonite crew. I'm a newbie on the forum, so be patient if I don't get this all right. This is regarding the earlier post about Kryptonite customer service and keys. Can you tell me when you worked here for three months? I do not want to come off as hostile or defensive, but you do the men and women on Team Kryptonite a grave injustice. To say that there are no riders here is just wrong, or perhaps you don't remember when we counted more than 100 bikes among less than 25 people in the office? I'd just ask people to visit our blog (www.unbreakable-bonds.blogspot.com) to see multiple posts from people here who ride, motorcycle, ATV, ski and snowboard....no slouches here!
I have worked here for many years and can attest to the fact that this is not an "uptight office" with daily floggings for minor mistakes. This is a great group of people who are dedicated and compassionate. Why else would we subject ourselves to the daily critique of passionate cyclists? :-)
I'd also like to touch on your comment about key codes....we have an entire ROOM full of keys with key codes...not sure where this info is coming from...ancient times maybe? The 70's maybe? Last, but not least, I just want to make sure that everyone knows that we haven't used barrel style keys in a loooooooooonnnnnggggg time.....since, well you know when..........
Thanks for giving me the chance to clear the air.
I have worked here for many years and can attest to the fact that this is not an "uptight office" with daily floggings for minor mistakes. This is a great group of people who are dedicated and compassionate. Why else would we subject ourselves to the daily critique of passionate cyclists? :-)
I'd also like to touch on your comment about key codes....we have an entire ROOM full of keys with key codes...not sure where this info is coming from...ancient times maybe? The 70's maybe? Last, but not least, I just want to make sure that everyone knows that we haven't used barrel style keys in a loooooooooonnnnnggggg time.....since, well you know when..........
Thanks for giving me the chance to clear the air.
05-14-09 | 01:26 PM
#230
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Just as I suspected. It would be irresponsible for any lock company to only use 'a few' different key codes, considering that there are so many available.
05-14-09 | 06:27 PM
#231
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From: Red Sox Nation, Greater Boston.
Bikes: Many, Many, Many
I actually worked for Kryptonite for three months in their customer service department. It SUCKED. I went into the job thinking that it would be a really cool place to work...probably a ton of bikers who were all super healthy and into the job for more than just a pay check.
The reality was nothing like that. It was a super uptight office environment, mistakes were not tolerated, and no excuse was given, unless management screwed up, than well you know....things happen.
No one else biked to work, and most of the customer service department couldn't begin to relate to the customers, because they were all caravan driving soccer moms whose only contact with bicycling was when they yelled at the kids to get their K-Mart brand hot pink/white bike off of the lawn.
While working there,
-I've seen locks that were returned due to the warranty agreement that had been cut through with a torch. We used to receive at least once a week by mail.
-If you live in a high crime area, I wouldn't trust the U-Lock alone. They had by far the highest failure rate of any Kryptonite lock, outside of the crap that Kryptonite made for the big box stores.
-I frequently talked to customers in the Metro NYC area who wouldn't use anything less than the Motorcycle grade locks to secure they're bikes.
-The biggest idiots to deal with were the people who bought their Kyrptonite lock from Walmart, the Kryptonite locks they sell at Wally world are not the same locks they sell in a bike shop. They are a different low quality product line.
The worst were the people that buy the re-settable combination lock with the cable.
A vast majority of the phone calls regarding that lock is how to reset the combination if it's locked and can't remember the combination that they set. There was no way of resetting the lock. You can only reset the combination if the lock isn't actually locked. If you can't open the lock, you can't reset the lock.
People, particularily men, couldn't grasp the concept of why it might be a bad idea to design a re-settable combination lock, that would actually allow you to change the combination WHILE the lock is in use. If that was the case....it MUST be defective
The stupid lock caused more heart ache for people.
-Coolest customer ever was a Texan who had moved to New York City. He called at least weekly to fill out the insurance paperwork to have his bike replaced. He wasn't a scammer either. He lived in a bad part of NYC and just couldn't keep a bike, no matter what lock he used to lock it up. So he bought the Kryptonite locks and filed a claim for the theft. Kryptonite never paid out a large amount, but it was enough for him to go Wal-Mart and get another bike.
Everybody in the department knew his story by heart.
I think he was using the NYC Chain lock at the time and thieves still cut it. He had gotten so sick of his bike getting stolen that he only bought Wal-Mart quality bikes. Since he only had them about a week the quality never was really an issue. And he told me that he was sick of constantly replacing a good bike, so he always bought junkers.
He was never even mad about it.
-Dealing with people who had bikes stolen wasn't usually pleasant. Most people were pretty short tempered, even when they did stupid things with their bikes. Like using a NYC chain lock to lock a bike to a chain link fence....
And than complaining when their claim was denied by Kryptonite. Due to the fact that the lock didn't fail the fence did.
Yes you are culpable as to what you lock your bike to.
-There were people who scammed or tried to scam the warranty policy, they'd get a Wal-Mart bike stolen and yet file a report for a top of the line road bike. And to think Kryptonite wants to see a receipt for that $3,000 bike...hmm.
The reality was nothing like that. It was a super uptight office environment, mistakes were not tolerated, and no excuse was given, unless management screwed up, than well you know....things happen.
No one else biked to work, and most of the customer service department couldn't begin to relate to the customers, because they were all caravan driving soccer moms whose only contact with bicycling was when they yelled at the kids to get their K-Mart brand hot pink/white bike off of the lawn.
While working there,
-I've seen locks that were returned due to the warranty agreement that had been cut through with a torch. We used to receive at least once a week by mail.
-If you live in a high crime area, I wouldn't trust the U-Lock alone. They had by far the highest failure rate of any Kryptonite lock, outside of the crap that Kryptonite made for the big box stores.
-I frequently talked to customers in the Metro NYC area who wouldn't use anything less than the Motorcycle grade locks to secure they're bikes.
-The biggest idiots to deal with were the people who bought their Kyrptonite lock from Walmart, the Kryptonite locks they sell at Wally world are not the same locks they sell in a bike shop. They are a different low quality product line.
The worst were the people that buy the re-settable combination lock with the cable.
A vast majority of the phone calls regarding that lock is how to reset the combination if it's locked and can't remember the combination that they set. There was no way of resetting the lock. You can only reset the combination if the lock isn't actually locked. If you can't open the lock, you can't reset the lock.
People, particularily men, couldn't grasp the concept of why it might be a bad idea to design a re-settable combination lock, that would actually allow you to change the combination WHILE the lock is in use. If that was the case....it MUST be defective
The stupid lock caused more heart ache for people.
-Coolest customer ever was a Texan who had moved to New York City. He called at least weekly to fill out the insurance paperwork to have his bike replaced. He wasn't a scammer either. He lived in a bad part of NYC and just couldn't keep a bike, no matter what lock he used to lock it up. So he bought the Kryptonite locks and filed a claim for the theft. Kryptonite never paid out a large amount, but it was enough for him to go Wal-Mart and get another bike.
Everybody in the department knew his story by heart.
I think he was using the NYC Chain lock at the time and thieves still cut it. He had gotten so sick of his bike getting stolen that he only bought Wal-Mart quality bikes. Since he only had them about a week the quality never was really an issue. And he told me that he was sick of constantly replacing a good bike, so he always bought junkers.
He was never even mad about it.
-Dealing with people who had bikes stolen wasn't usually pleasant. Most people were pretty short tempered, even when they did stupid things with their bikes. Like using a NYC chain lock to lock a bike to a chain link fence....
And than complaining when their claim was denied by Kryptonite. Due to the fact that the lock didn't fail the fence did.
Yes you are culpable as to what you lock your bike to.
-There were people who scammed or tried to scam the warranty policy, they'd get a Wal-Mart bike stolen and yet file a report for a top of the line road bike. And to think Kryptonite wants to see a receipt for that $3,000 bike...hmm.
I worked there for over 20 years [have a wee plaque and all to prove that], and I can tell you for a fact that through those many great years, many, many, people including myself commuted to work on bikes and M-Cycles, and not on pink lawn ornaments, [well there was one].
There were many, many, nightly rides that left from the front door of the Canton factory, not sure how you missed that [if you worked there]???? Anywhere from 2-8 “Kryptonite staff” hammering up the 138, around the Blue Hills and back…
And how about the well published and documented annual Kryptonite “LOCK AND LUBE century” [want a picture]??? We also put together a ‘Kryptonite Team [with one ringer] to compete in the 24 Hours of Canaan, [man that still hurts] Maybe you were there in December or January, but we still had a few spiked tire snow rides, and how the hell did u miss the indoor crits around the factory in the winter<< dangerous f%^king handling, that was!!
“super uptight office environment” you were definitely not in the same place where we worked, because I don’t know of anyone who worked there and experienced the Zane brothers, or for that matter the Gary Furst years could every come away saying “super uptight office environment” >> OMG far from it [what pay checks, people got pay checks??].
And last but not least, 3 KEY CODES, TOTAL BS!!! What the hell did we do on you???
Last edited by NeilMcDaid; 05-14-09 at 07:46 PM. Reason: "KEY CODES"
05-15-09 | 07:35 PM
#232
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Thanks for all the info crawdaddio, I thought I would ask my question here as well.
I recently had someone try to steal my bike, which I had locked up with:
Low level bike guard lock https://www.bikeguardlocks.com/ulocks/rocklock_1300.php
And a Canadian tire cable lock similar to this, only with a lock built into the cable https://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows...ike%2BLock.jsp
The thief defeated the cable lock by cutting the cable, and they did not touch the u-lock.
My question is, is this type of cable lock more or less secure then a loop cable with a padlock?
I live in a very low crime city (St. John's, NL, Canada) so I use a u-lock only when I will not be near my bike for a while, or when it is dark.
I recently had someone try to steal my bike, which I had locked up with:
Low level bike guard lock https://www.bikeguardlocks.com/ulocks/rocklock_1300.php
And a Canadian tire cable lock similar to this, only with a lock built into the cable https://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows...ike%2BLock.jsp
The thief defeated the cable lock by cutting the cable, and they did not touch the u-lock.
My question is, is this type of cable lock more or less secure then a loop cable with a padlock?
I live in a very low crime city (St. John's, NL, Canada) so I use a u-lock only when I will not be near my bike for a while, or when it is dark.
05-17-09 | 02:47 PM
#233
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Thanks for all the info crawdaddio, I thought I would ask my question here as well.
I recently had someone try to steal my bike, which I had locked up with:
Low level bike guard lock https://www.bikeguardlocks.com/ulocks/rocklock_1300.php
And a Canadian tire cable lock similar to this, only with a lock built into the cable https://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows...ike%2BLock.jsp
The thief defeated the cable lock by cutting the cable, and they did not touch the u-lock.
My question is, is this type of cable lock more or less secure then a loop cable with a padlock?
I live in a very low crime city (St. John's, NL, Canada) so I use a u-lock only when I will not be near my bike for a while, or when it is dark.
I recently had someone try to steal my bike, which I had locked up with:
Low level bike guard lock https://www.bikeguardlocks.com/ulocks/rocklock_1300.php
And a Canadian tire cable lock similar to this, only with a lock built into the cable https://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows...ike%2BLock.jsp
The thief defeated the cable lock by cutting the cable, and they did not touch the u-lock.
My question is, is this type of cable lock more or less secure then a loop cable with a padlock?
I live in a very low crime city (St. John's, NL, Canada) so I use a u-lock only when I will not be near my bike for a while, or when it is dark.
So they didn't get your bike then.
I'm glad to hear that.
I think if you are going to use a cable of any kind, it should be used in addition to a U locked through the frame.
It should be the thickest cable you can afford and wish to carry.
The combination cables (or any combo lock used on a bike) are less secure in my opinion than using a cable and padlock or U lock. The combos are easily defeated, but once again, as you know, most thieves will just cut the cable. Either style should be fine in a low risk area.
Make them have to use power tools or heavy jacks to get your entire bike (which is what you did).
Your incident is testament to the fact that you should always use your U lock. It saved your bike, didn't it?
Here is how I always lock if I will only be away from the bike for a short while and/or in a relatively safe location. For long term, I will add another U lock through the downtube and front wheel. I won't ever leave any of my bikes locked up outside anywhere overnight.
05-17-09 | 03:53 PM
#235
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From: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Nice pictures of how to lock your bike. That's excatly what I do, I use a NY krypto + cable through the wheel. If I was to be away from my bike for a long time I have another u lock ( onguard ).I do have one question for you Crawdadio. What do you think of those chain locks, like onguard , krypto, and planet bike also makes what looks to be heavy duty chain. How difficult is it to defeat such a chain ?
05-17-09 | 08:27 PM
#236
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I hear "cable locks" are easily cut and not very reliable, but how are "chain locks"? I don't mean the "Fahgettaboudit"-type chains; rather, the sort with small links that are covered by a "sheet" of plastic, secured by a combination-lock (four numbers) fixed to one end. Are they more or less reliable than (light-use) cables?
Thanks.
Thanks.
05-17-09 | 10:13 PM
#237
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Again, I don't like and won't recommend any sort of combination lock. Use them if only if you are not really concerned about theft in your area.
Heavy duty, hardened steel chains when used with a good lock like a quality U lock or shrouded padlock are very effective. Much harder to cut through than cables.
Any chain that I have ever seen for sale at hardware stores will be cut just as easily as most cables.
See photo 3 posts up.
Those are good chains and, from all appearances, very good padlocks.
Good chains:
https://images.google.com/images?q=hardened%20boron%20chain&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
Bad chains:
https://www.pittjug.org/b2b/pics/Norw...Link_Chain.jpg
Heavy duty, hardened steel chains when used with a good lock like a quality U lock or shrouded padlock are very effective. Much harder to cut through than cables.
Any chain that I have ever seen for sale at hardware stores will be cut just as easily as most cables.
See photo 3 posts up.
Those are good chains and, from all appearances, very good padlocks.
Good chains:
https://images.google.com/images?q=hardened%20boron%20chain&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wiBad chains:
https://www.pittjug.org/b2b/pics/Norw...Link_Chain.jpg
Last edited by crawdaddio; 05-17-09 at 10:28 PM.
05-17-09 | 10:27 PM
#238
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250lbs of angry bike thief jumping on a pair of long, high quality bolt cutters might be able to snap them.
Short of that, you would have to use a grinder.
If you lock your bike as high off of the ground as possible, there is less chance of someone leveraging your locks off.
Last edited by crawdaddio; 05-17-09 at 10:35 PM.
05-18-09 | 12:43 AM
#241
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That was a guy trying to flog his own locks by scaring people. He's been discredited on many boards Thieves aren't running around with meter long bolt cutters. He's actually recommending the NYFU U-lock these days.....
05-18-09 | 01:55 PM
#242
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Sorry crawdaddio, I should have been more specific.
I am now looking to replace my cable lock and I am debating between getting a cable with an integrated (keyed) lock, or getting a cable with looped ends and a padlock.
I am leaning towards the looped ends + padlock because it seems to be more secure (to my untrained eye) and it would be more versatile, although it is heavier. I look forward to your input, thanks!
I am now looking to replace my cable lock and I am debating between getting a cable with an integrated (keyed) lock, or getting a cable with looped ends and a padlock.
I am leaning towards the looped ends + padlock because it seems to be more secure (to my untrained eye) and it would be more versatile, although it is heavier. I look forward to your input, thanks!
05-18-09 | 02:24 PM
#243
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Sorry crawdaddio, I should have been more specific.
I am now looking to replace my cable lock and I am debating between getting a cable with an integrated (keyed) lock, or getting a cable with looped ends and a padlock.
I am leaning towards the looped ends + padlock because it seems to be more secure (to my untrained eye) and it would be more versatile, although it is heavier. I look forward to your input, thanks!
I am now looking to replace my cable lock and I am debating between getting a cable with an integrated (keyed) lock, or getting a cable with looped ends and a padlock.
I am leaning towards the looped ends + padlock because it seems to be more secure (to my untrained eye) and it would be more versatile, although it is heavier. I look forward to your input, thanks!
I would recommend above either of those options using a good U lock to complete the loops of the cable (or in addition to your padlock) as I pictured above.
Last edited by crawdaddio; 05-18-09 at 02:28 PM.
05-18-09 | 02:32 PM
#244
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Of the two choices, I would recommend the padlock with the caveat that it be a decent hardened, shrouded version. Heavier, yes. Depending on where you are locking up, I would hope that you are using a good U lock in addition to the cable. Ignore me if you live in one of those small, crime free towns. If you just want something lighter and you aren't really at risk of bike theft in your area, the key integrated cable lock will do fine in keeping honest people honest.
I would recommend above either of those options using a good U lock to complete the loops of the cable as I pictured above.
I would recommend above either of those options using a good U lock to complete the loops of the cable as I pictured above.
I bought a lock and cable the other day but it turns out the lock is too small! I will have to go get a new one tomorrow. Thanks for your advice.
05-18-09 | 03:01 PM
#245
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From: Washington, DC
Have a general locking question that I figure someone might be able to chime in on: are "unique" bolting skewers (like Pitlocks) a good substitute for using a chain to lock your seat and wheels? If so it seems like a decent solution that only requires a single lock. I keep my bike inside at both home and work, so this is generally for shorter locking sessions.
My only use for quick release is for changing a tire, and I'm already inconvenienced then so I'm not really worried about taking a little extra time to get rid of a wheel.
My only use for quick release is for changing a tire, and I'm already inconvenienced then so I'm not really worried about taking a little extra time to get rid of a wheel.
05-18-09 | 05:02 PM
#246
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05-18-09 | 07:20 PM
#247
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From: Red Sox Nation, Greater Boston.
Bikes: Many, Many, Many
"Check with the manufacture"
I would have to disagree with this general advice of locking your bike as high as possible, in terms of throwing it out there as a general rule. Not so, “most “locks are designed for use in specific locations on the bike where they are most effective. Check with the manufacture of your lock and see if they recommend a best location. Yes some leverage methods are more effective when the lock is low, but not always.
05-18-09 | 10:06 PM
#248
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I'll have to find the YouTube video again; when (if) I do, I'll post a link. Just to explain, yes, the guy uses a pair of maybe three-foot bolt-cutters, and the chain is lying on the ground (which he uses to rest one handle of the cutters on).
05-19-09 | 05:09 PM
#249
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From: Hudson Valley of NY
Bikes: Fuji Newest 4.0 just bought 7/26/08!
Watch at 6:10 for the Kryptonite NY Faggitaboudit chain. Took him less than 30 seconds to cut the chain with a large bolt cutter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC3hFr8p2ck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC3hFr8p2ck
Yeah, because all bike thieves carry around a bolt cutter like that one......not.
I'm just saying.
05-19-09 | 07:14 PM
#250
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From: Hudson Valley of NY
Bikes: Fuji Newest 4.0 just bought 7/26/08!
If they do, would you say anything? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7zb8YXrmIA