On point to start operations to build up at home a new wheelset (DT 440 rim + Primato Miche hubs), I have to face a very last dilemma (!!) about spokes on NDS: a 2.0/1.8./2.0 (as planned for DS) or a 2.0/1.5/2.0, as suggested by John "Bespoke" Allen?
Several sources, among them the Sapim website ("You may have to use a pliers to hold the spoke to prevent the spokes from winding up"), suggest not to use 2.0/1.5/2.0 due to twisting to recover.

What's your experience?
I never used DT Laser, but usually (as required by Sheldon Brown) with the DB 2.0/1.8./2.0 I recover 1/4 turn back and, so far and since a dozen years, no problems occurred.

What do you suggest to an amateur wheelbuilder?

On a NDS rear, I haven't had much problems with wind-up on 1.5 mm DB spokes on 32-36H wheels.
Tricks I have tried when needed are:
Using strips of tape stuck to the spokes to act as flags to visually indicate when the nipple starts to turn.
Using a Magic Marker to paint a line down the spoke for the same purpose.

Pragmatic Touring and Utility type, and cheap, I mainly built with straight gage..

But there is the process of laying the rim against the floor and pushing the rim down ,
letting the spoke windup of the downward side's spokes relax unwind,
and .. I dip each spoke's threads in anti seize,
to make subsequent wheel truings not have seized nips..

Unlike many others, I use grease on spoke threads. I rarely have any issues with spoke twist on thin left rear spokes partly because of the grease and partly because I don't tension them that high.

If you're concerned, or simply not sure, lace the wheel, and bring it to only enough tension to have shape. At this point the spokes shouldn't be twisted, though you can flex the rim to slacken them and allow any twist to resolve.

Now spin the wheel and use a dry marker to dot the spokes near the end of the thicker section. That will act as a twist monitor, and when you're finished, you can wipe the dot off with alcohol or acetone.

What do you mean by "spin"? What's the aim?

Morevoer, while greasing the surfaces in the running should be the usual basic behaviour of all wheelbuilders, I never read about flexing the system to relax spokes e solve some twisting. It sounds a good doing which simulates the work of the wheel on road. But: once the spoke relaxes from his previous twisting, you have to face a new turn of truing and you are back to the start.

How about clamping spokes (as for bladed spokes)? And with what?

I spin the wheel to quickly put the reference mark on the spokes with the dry marker.

Interesting idea. I might try it.

In the past with straight gauge or butted spokes, I haven't worried about wind-up. Perhaps I had to do some extra turns with the spoke wrench.

I do get some popping at the end, so by marking the spokes, one could easily unwind them, and hopefully minimize popping.

WIth the bladed spokes I've been experimenting with lately, windup is a problem, but it seems easy enough to just true the wheel, then unwind once one is finished. Stress points still seem to be at the nipples and spoke heads, and unwinding doesn't seem to affect the truing.

Do wound-up spokes self-losen? Another reason to unwind them at the end of the process.

Truly good idea to use a dry marker along the spoke (the most sensible part of the butted spoke to twisting is the thinner portion) in order to check wind up.

However, with bladed spoke you fix the spoke wrench e turn the blade wrench to unwind. With round spoke, if you unwind to recover twist, you likely loose truing, and the story restart.
Any idea to clamp a round spoke?

For the record: front 24 holes radial, rear 28H 2nd laced.

If you are unwinding a twisted spoke, you are not changing the tension or the length of the spoke. The point of the practice is that the last quarter turn of the nipple, you are not adding tension; you are just twisting the spoke. That's why you have to turn it back a quarter turn.

That's the risk.
As the spoke slackens during riding, the nipple stays put and the spoke unwinds and lose tension.

I'm not sure that is correct, and may loosen the spoke.

I've been unwinding simply by feeling with my fingers for them to be straight and twisting the nipple. Thus, no unthreading while unwinding.

You can, of course, hold with your blade wrench, but that is different.

For straight pull, however, it is very helpful to start with them straight at the hub.

How fancy do you want to get?
How worried are you about a few scratches?


I'd probably simply look for the pair of pliers with the most worn jaws and use that.


Although I thing I've seen pliers made for the purpose.


Maybe bring the Dremel out, grind a shallow groove over one or both of the jaws for better clamping force.


Or use a strip of sheet aluminium between jaws and spoke to prevent surface nicks.

Would clamping do more damage/risk than simply letting the spokes wind up, then unwinding them at the end?

The overshoot-a-little, back-off-a-little method works well for me in preventing windup.

That's the golden rule of every handbook, included those of the venerated J. Brandt and S. Brown , but have you (or any) experience with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes? With classic usual DB, I never got problems (for decades).

Grab the time to wellcome the idea to push (gently) rims against wall/floor to relax spokes and (probably) unwind spokes winding. It sounds something better than nothing, a strip of dry marker can do check of.

Haven't tried spokes with 1.5 centers (and have no interest in it) but I built my last wheelset with 1.8/1.6/1.8 and it went really well. I think if windup ever were a problem for me, I'd rather do my side-loading while adjusting the spokes so that I don't have to chase it later.

Can't say really.
If I was building for someone else, I wouldn't want to hand a wheel over with easily visible nicks on every spoke.
Although I suspect fatigue failure at the elbow would still be the limiting factor eventually.
Its probably faster to use the tape flag or Magic Marker method to track and correct windup rather than clamping the spoke.
Or if your truing stand is sturdy enough, deflecting the wheel sideways when tensioning.

I do clamp spokes occasionally, to help deal with a seized nipple etc. and have no principal objections to the technique.