Going back to 23/25 from 28/30...?
#126
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I used to ride Vittorio open tubulars ... a model i cannot find any more ... and the ride was phenomenal, even on 23s at high pressure ... but the wear rate was insane. Now I am using Michelins and Vittorio Rubino Pros but while both last a lot longer, neither provide the super-supple, sticky ride I wanted and had on the old rubber.
Life is full of cruel compromises.
Life is full of cruel compromises.
#127
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I used to ride Vittorio open tubulars ... a model i cannot find any more ... and the ride was phenomenal, even on 23s at high pressure ... but the wear rate was insane. Now I am using Michelins and Vittorio Rubino Pros but while both last a lot longer, neither provide the super-supple, sticky ride I wanted and had on the old rubber.
Life is full of cruel compromises.
Life is full of cruel compromises.
Last edited by seypat; 01-27-24 at 06:06 PM.
#128
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Funny You should mention all that.
My 21-yeqr-old car is possibly dying ... at some point repairs are a bad investment---but i will not buy a gas-wasting, space-wasting SUV which is large and heavy and still not able to carry hardly anything. I want a tiny van or small wagon but like yourself, I am waiting to find something that suits. I want to be able to haul at least two people and a good bit of gear or bikes and all that .... . and there is nothing which is not swollen, overweight, inefficient, and too expensive for the value.
Modern motor vehicle mechanicals are amazing, but modern motor vehicle designs are pure crap. All frosting, no cake. No one sells a simple piece of bread.
My 21-yeqr-old car is possibly dying ... at some point repairs are a bad investment---but i will not buy a gas-wasting, space-wasting SUV which is large and heavy and still not able to carry hardly anything. I want a tiny van or small wagon but like yourself, I am waiting to find something that suits. I want to be able to haul at least two people and a good bit of gear or bikes and all that .... . and there is nothing which is not swollen, overweight, inefficient, and too expensive for the value.
Modern motor vehicle mechanicals are amazing, but modern motor vehicle designs are pure crap. All frosting, no cake. No one sells a simple piece of bread.
#129
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I used to ride Vittorio open tubulars ... a model i cannot find any more ... and the ride was phenomenal, even on 23s at high pressure ... but the wear rate was insane. Now I am using Michelins and Vittorio Rubino Pros but while both last a lot longer, neither provide the super-supple, sticky ride I wanted and had on the old rubber.
Life is full of cruel compromises.
Life is full of cruel compromises.
And that brought back memories. Ribbed tread! Best ever for climbing out or cracks, ruts and back onto the shoulder. Now combined with very decent gripping rubber and totally confidence inspiring. Biggest drawback is the wallet hit of that little "Graphene" label on the tire. My body is maxxed out on crashes so I take the wallet hit and ride those tires in whatever size best suits that bike almost all the time.
#130
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My 21-yeqr-old car is possibly dying ... at some point repairs are a bad investment---but i will not buy a gas-wasting, space-wasting SUV which is large and heavy and still not able to carry hardly anything. I want a tiny van or small wagon but like yourself, I am waiting to find something that suits. I want to be able to haul at least two people and a good bit of gear or bikes and all that .... . and there is nothing which is not swollen, overweight, inefficient, and too expensive for the value.
Last edited by Koyote; 01-27-24 at 06:28 PM.
#131
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#132
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My experience with Specialized expensive tubulars (not Hell,o th North). Wonderful ride, about 700road miles on a rear. but I weigh ~190lbs.
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#133
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This is bordering on idiocy. I spent 4 years as an apprentice toolmaker followed up with 15 years as a lead hand in a custom fabrication shop,which specialized in precision metal products. Medical instruments, aerospace, military and astronomy equipment as well as molds and dies. Often our products required welding as part of manufacturing and assembly which I was involved in. You have absolutely no clue if you think that brazing some lugged tubes together in a jig is challenging at all.
Richard Sachs made very attractive frames to a discerning clientele which were beautifully finished but performed identically to others. As a frame builder gets more proficient he gets faster while retaining the same quality but the actual performance is identical. I find it bizarre on how gullible so many people are regarding frame builders, the input materials are identical as well as the assembly methods so the only differentiation is branding, finish and details which play no role in performance or reliability. Just look at these forums which has a frame building sub forum with over 50,000 posts, not a very rarefied group if you ask me.
Richard Sachs made very attractive frames to a discerning clientele which were beautifully finished but performed identically to others. As a frame builder gets more proficient he gets faster while retaining the same quality but the actual performance is identical. I find it bizarre on how gullible so many people are regarding frame builders, the input materials are identical as well as the assembly methods so the only differentiation is branding, finish and details which play no role in performance or reliability. Just look at these forums which has a frame building sub forum with over 50,000 posts, not a very rarefied group if you ask me.
The poster was astonished at that reply and asked in the framebuilder's forum here what they thought about the exchange. The consensus was that the framebuilder's reply was accurate and that he deserved respect for his honesty.
Reading threads over the years, I've learned that the degree of reverence in which artisanal frames are held tends to be inversely proportional to the number of frames the beholder has built.
#134
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I would base my tire choice on a mixture of rider preference, experience, bike choice, and terrain. I like "28"mm gatorskins. Going into 23mm tires I find they are just a little rough on wooden bridges or potholes, but that's acceptable to me. 32's are nice and I got some 35's recently to try out.
I prefer to have multiple bikes, so a couple can have 23's for fast zippy rides, cx/gravel can run 32+, and a mtb or two with 1.5-2.0in tires for maximum floatability.
I weigh 225lbs
Currently trying out cheaper 23's since they were on sale, so many tire options these days.
I prefer to have multiple bikes, so a couple can have 23's for fast zippy rides, cx/gravel can run 32+, and a mtb or two with 1.5-2.0in tires for maximum floatability.
I weigh 225lbs
Currently trying out cheaper 23's since they were on sale, so many tire options these days.
#135
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Lots of chipseal and broken up roads here. On my tubeless bike I run Conti 5000 TRs at 70/72 which gives a comfortable ride without sacrificing speed, which is usually around 18 MPH. On my tubed bikes, I also have Conti 5000 clinchers with light weight buytl tubes (will switch to latex one of these days) at 80/82, again at 18 MPH. Back in the bad old days, I had 23s run at 115 which lost me a few teeth fillings - but the tires felt fast-but it no doubt because of stronger legs. Will not go back to skinny/high pressure, since I enjoy being comfortable while riding at about the same speeds I did decades ago, but as another said, “you do you”.
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#136
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On your road bike, anyone ever go to a fatter tire (28-32ish) and lower psi and then decide that thin is still in?
Are there still those that don't follow the 'science' and CRR stats and say -- I like it firm, thin, and fast (at least the perceived feeling of fast)?
I will certainly agree that wider is more comfortable, but for a go-fast bike where I limit rides to 20-30 miles per ride, on good and bad tarmac -- am I missing something?
Thanks!
Are there still those that don't follow the 'science' and CRR stats and say -- I like it firm, thin, and fast (at least the perceived feeling of fast)?
I will certainly agree that wider is more comfortable, but for a go-fast bike where I limit rides to 20-30 miles per ride, on good and bad tarmac -- am I missing something?
Thanks!
But ride a vintage steel with steel fork on 23mm tires? Yeah, the 23mm on steel is more compliant and comfy. It is true. It's why my current project is probably going to be renovating my parents old steel. And I'm certain that with 23/25mm, that steel will be more comfortable than my carbon with 28mm.
#137
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Lots of chipseal and broken up roads here. On my tubeless bike I run Conti 5000 TRs at 70/72 which gives a comfortable ride without sacrificing speed, which is usually around 18 MPH. On my tubed bikes, I also have Conti 5000 clinchers with light weight buytl tubes (will switch to latex one of these days) at 80/82, again at 18 MPH. Back in the bad old days, I had 23s run at 115 which lost me a few teeth fillings - but the tires felt fast-but it no doubt because of stronger legs. Will not go back to skinny/high pressure, since I enjoy being comfortable while riding at about the same speeds I did decades ago, but as another said, “you do you”.
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#138
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Lots of chipseal and broken up roads here. On my tubeless bike I run Conti 5000 TRs at 70/72 which gives a comfortable ride without sacrificing speed, which is usually around 18 MPH. On my tubed bikes, I also have Conti 5000 clinchers with light weight buytl tubes (will switch to latex one of these days) at 80/82, again at 18 MPH. Back in the bad old days, I had 23s run at 115 which lost me a few teeth fillings - but the tires felt fast-but it no doubt because of stronger legs. Will not go back to skinny/high pressure, since I enjoy being comfortable while riding at about the same speeds I did decades ago, but as another said, “you do you”.
A skinny tire is more compliant than a fat tire at the same pressure. So if you're still one of the holdouts that hasn't joined Fat Tire Club, try reducing the pressure. The only down side I can think of is an increased risk of a pinch flat.
My current choice is GP5000 25 (measured width 27.5 mm), at 78/82 psi. Smooth and comfy, and I certainly could go lower.
#139
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Here's a little factoid that might ruffle some feathers among Fat Tire Club:
A skinny tire is more compliant than a fat tire at the same pressure. So if you're still one of the holdouts that hasn't joined Fat Tire Club, try reducing the pressure. The only down side I can think of is an increased risk of a pinch flat.
My current choice is GP5000 25 (measured width 27.5 mm), at 78/82 psi. Smooth and comfy, and I certainly could go lower.
A skinny tire is more compliant than a fat tire at the same pressure. So if you're still one of the holdouts that hasn't joined Fat Tire Club, try reducing the pressure. The only down side I can think of is an increased risk of a pinch flat.
My current choice is GP5000 25 (measured width 27.5 mm), at 78/82 psi. Smooth and comfy, and I certainly could go lower.
#140
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Speed is relative to the amount I care to relate to the cycling sensation called "weeeeeeeeeee"
But seriously ...... I've never been one to try to quantify the ride of tires. As long as they roll well and don't flat often, I'm good until they wear out. I did really like the ride of tubulars for while in the 80's, but I had too many flats and my ability to sew them back up was not so good. I'm a whole lot lighter these days and maybe I wouldn't have that issue anymore, but for now I'm okay with Marathon Racer tires at a relatively low 45-50 psi for the 35(33.5 actual)mm version.
But seriously ...... I've never been one to try to quantify the ride of tires. As long as they roll well and don't flat often, I'm good until they wear out. I did really like the ride of tubulars for while in the 80's, but I had too many flats and my ability to sew them back up was not so good. I'm a whole lot lighter these days and maybe I wouldn't have that issue anymore, but for now I'm okay with Marathon Racer tires at a relatively low 45-50 psi for the 35(33.5 actual)mm version.
Last edited by Garthr; 03-15-24 at 11:47 AM.
#141
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#143
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Here's a little factoid that might ruffle some feathers among Fat Tire Club:
A skinny tire is more compliant than a fat tire at the same pressure. So if you're still one of the holdouts that hasn't joined Fat Tire Club, try reducing the pressure. The only down side I can think of is an increased risk of a pinch flat.
My current choice is GP5000 25 (measured width 27.5 mm), at 78/82 psi. Smooth and comfy, and I certainly could go lower.
A skinny tire is more compliant than a fat tire at the same pressure. So if you're still one of the holdouts that hasn't joined Fat Tire Club, try reducing the pressure. The only down side I can think of is an increased risk of a pinch flat.
My current choice is GP5000 25 (measured width 27.5 mm), at 78/82 psi. Smooth and comfy, and I certainly could go lower.
2) I think most of us get the point, and have reduced pressures, but for the heavier riders, to get the same cush as flyweight on 25s at 78/82, we have to run 28s or 32s at even lower pressures.
Regarding the original, 3-month-old OP, I've seen several people say they like skinny tires at high pressures because they FEEL faster. This makes me think that these folks mistake feeling every tiny pebble on the road = fast, but I can tell you that my fastest bike also has the fattest tires and the plushest ride. I prefer to GO fast, rather than just FEEL fast.
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#144
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https://bikecloset.com/product/vitto...-folding-700c/
https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/...uscador_search
Both Vittoria Corsa and Veloflex Corsa ride really well. I run 23mm Veloflex Corsa and honestly I am not feeling any more harshness than the 25mm Continental GP5000 and GP4000 on my other bikes.
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#145
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Or something like that. It's also the reason why skinny tires are more prone to bottom out, I think. It's hard to visualize.
#146
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I hear it has to do with the shape of the tire's contact patch -- long and thin vs. short and wide. Increasing the contact patch under additional load causes the "long and thin" tire to deflect more.
Or something like that. It's also the reason why skinny tires are more prone to bottom out, I think. It's hard to visualize.
Or something like that. It's also the reason why skinny tires are more prone to bottom out, I think. It's hard to visualize.
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#147
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I have found tires with actual width of 27-30mm to be my pavement sweet spot. I do still have a couple sets of 26 mm gravel kings that I use occasionally. I like them much better on Hed Belgium rims, 18+mm interior, than on 15 mm internal DA C24’s. They measure out to a hair under 28mm on the Hed, a hair under 26mm on the C24.
I did go to 25mm Vittoria Open Pave for a short while last year, cannot remember bike or wheels, decided I prefer a bit wider tire. The 27mm Open Pave on a wider rim is a fine ride.
I did go to 25mm Vittoria Open Pave for a short while last year, cannot remember bike or wheels, decided I prefer a bit wider tire. The 27mm Open Pave on a wider rim is a fine ride.
#148
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#149
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Regarding the original, 3-month-old OP, I've seen several people say they like skinny tires at high pressures because they FEEL faster. This makes me think that these folks mistake feeling every tiny pebble on the road = fast, but I can tell you that my fastest bike also has the fattest tires and the plushest ride. I prefer to GO fast, rather than just FEEL fast.
The sentiment of the above quote usually gets twisted into the "wide tires are faster than narrower tires" BS.
#150
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A few weeks ago I deflated my tires by 40 PSI, to 100. The ride sucked. I'm back to 140. Even Rene Herse says, "There's nothing wrong with narrow tires, of course. If you prefer the 'connected-to-the-road' feel of a racing bike, then you'll be happier on narrow tires.[I am. --smd] If your friends tease you to 'get with the program,' remind them: narrow tires are not slower than wide tires - they just aren't faster, either."
The sentiment of the above quote usually gets twisted into the "wide tires are faster than narrower tires" BS.
The sentiment of the above quote usually gets twisted into the "wide tires are faster than narrower tires" BS.
Wider is not necessarily faster - here they find the sweet spot for them is 32mm - but there's a combination of width, tire make and model, and pressure that's optimal in terms of mph/watt for any given rider and road, and unless you're 145 lbs, riding on new asphalt, it's probably not 23mm at 140.
But ride what you want. Just accept that it's a preference, not empirically faster.
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